M7 No. 245 - a couple of questions

For Christmas, I've just acquired yet another book on the last years of Southern steam - "Decline of Southern Steam" by Michael Welch - and a very good book it is too. Like several other books to deal with Southern steam in the 1960s, it features a picture of M7 No. 30053 working the Three Bridges-Tunbridge Wells West services. The caption mentions that it was then transferred to Bournemouth where it was one of the last operational M7s and worked over the Swanage Branch (although I would suspect that most readers wold be well aware of this!). It appears to have been quite a celebrity even before its transatlantic travels and return to Dorset.

By contrast, there are no pictures of the other preserved M7, the NRM's No. 245 in any book in my possession. All I know about its operational history ios that it was shedded at Nine Elms in May 1959, so presumably was used on the ECS workings from Waterloo to Clapham Junction. I'm intrigued as to why this particular loco was chosen to represent the class in the national collection. Does it have any particualr claim to fame? - or was it just that it was in the best condition of the surviving members of the class? It doesn't seem to have been one of the last survivors in use as far as I can make out, but I may be wrong.

Considering that there are a number of LSWR afficionados on this forum, can anyone satisfy my curiosity regarding this engine?

Thanks

 

Hi John

Have drawn bit of a blank on that - have been through DL Bradley, but it leaves few clues as to what 245 was doing at the end of service, except that she was withdrawn 11/1962 and then, intriguingly;

Which neither explains where she was for 15 years before 1982 (i.e. back to 1967), nor, for that matter, where she was between withdrawal in 1962 and 1967! It is surprising, because normally Bradley is very thorough.

I suspect one reason she might have been saved is because she was from the initial order of 25 locos (order number M7, which gave its name to the class) so was possibly the closest to the "exemplar" engine that was still available for preservation. She would have been the fourth engine from that initial batch. The previous three engines (242, 243, 244) had been scrapped in 7/1958, 9/1958 and 10/1957 respectively, so it is possible that if a decision to preserve an M7 had been made after that date, then 245 was the oldest surviving engine. The M7s, significantly, were Drummond's first design for the LSWR, which may have influenced the decision to preserve one - 245 was thus, by late 1962, the oldest survivor of the first Drummond LSWR class, so had a certain significance. Incidentally, she was the 501st engine built at Nine Elms (source: HC Casserley).

I wonder if Anthony Coulls could fill in any of the preservation history?

History

Details I can glean from Bradley are as follows:

Built at Nine Elms, delivered April 1897 from order number M7 at a cost of £1,580.

Detail differences from others in the class as follows:

- Short front frames (some engines were later built with long front frames);
- Lever reverser (some later engines had steam reversers);
- Combined leading splasher and sandboxes with wing plates (some later engines had normal splashers and the sandboxes in the smokebox);
- Injectors (some later engines had feedwater heating and feed pumps);
- Clacks on the boiler barrel (Some later engines had clacks on the bottom of the front tube plate);
- Number plates (some later engines had transfer numerals);
- Fitted with two organ-pipe hooters (others in that first series had conventional whistles);
- Standard smokebox door (i.e. not the Drummond conical door that had a spark arrester behind it - again, some of the initial series were thus equipped);
- Steam sanders (some later engines had gravity sanders);
- Lettered "SWR" on the tanks (the lettering of LSWR locos was very varied at that time, with SWR, S.W.R., LSW, LSWR, etc all variously used).

The hooters (of Caledonian Railway pattern) were replaced with conventional whistles on or after August 1897 after complaints from lineside residents!

The boiler of an M7 was of similar pattern to those on the 700 goods and C8 and K10 4-4-0s and there were regular boiler swaps between classes after about 1905, when five spare boilers were provided to create a pool.

When new, 245 was stationed at Nine Elms for use on Waterloo - Guildford, Windsor and Reading services.

Still allocated to Nine Elms as at March 1906.

Equipped for operating motor trains some time after World War 1. This was the LSWR cable-operated system with cables running from the back of the cab into the motor coaches to allow operation of the locomotive controls. Up to three carriages could be propelled in this way. Forward-facing motor gear caused problems with signal sighting and was not fitted to 245.

Painted in Southern Livery (lined olive green) in October 1925 (i.e. nearly three years after the grouping; it must have had an LSWR repaint very shortly before grouping as it was amongst the last M7s to be repainted. Contemporary records indicate that LSWR locos averaged about three years between repaints at that time). Numbered E245.

E prefix removed (and therefore reverted to plain old 245) in December 1931.

Recorded still at Nine Elms in January 1931. By this stage the motor gear had been removed; probably this was soon after mid 1929 when, following a series of incidents with the cable-operated motor gear, it's use was prohibited and the SR standardised on the ex-LBSCR compressed air system (which, incidentally, could only be fitted to the long-frame M7s by virtue of the space needed). As a short frame engine, 245 did not have the compressed air system fitted and thus lost its motor train capability.

Mid 1937 recorded as allocated to Bournemouth and working services around Salisbury, Wareham, Swanage, Brockenhurst, Poole, Hamworthy, Wimbourne, Blandford.

Repainted plain black with Bulleid sunshine lettering and bunker numerals some time after March 1941.

Repainted into BR lined black August 1949. (A photo of 30376 at the same period shows no identification on the side tanks - neither "BRITISH RAILWAYS" nor an emblem; and with the number on the bunker, with the power classification "K" immediately below. Presumably 30245 was similar at that time).

Transferred to Barnstaple in mid 1951.

Transferred to Redhill December 1953 to work Reading - Redhill services. At that time Reading turntable was unserviceable and a number of M7s were drafted in to work the services in place of the normal tender engines.

At that point, there is no further mention of 245. It is not clear from Bradley but the assumption I have is that she went back to Barnstaple after that temporary interlude in Redhill, whereupon she was withdrawn (or possibly transferred to Nine Elms, which would accord with your information that she was at nine Elms in 1959) as part of the general replacement of older engines with Ivatt tanks and GW deisgns around the late 1950s. The withdrawal date is given as November 1962, but as noted above, how it then entered preservation is not clear.

Hope that helps - or helps you go to sleep, if nothing else!

Tom

 

Incidentally, currently 245 has transfer numerals and is lettered "LSWR". There is a very clear photograph of 245 in Bradley, dated May 1897 (i.e. the month after entering service), clearly confirming Bradley's statement that she was initially lettered SWR and with a number plate on the bunker: presumably, when she was last repainted (is it still the 1982 paint job?) they had photographic evidence or other to show a later livery change to her current form, which I guess is the Urie livery.

There's a photo of 245 here, carriage shunting at Clapham Junction supposedly in 1955, which suggests an earlier transfer from Barnstaple:

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/m7class_02.html

Tom

 

Just to confirm that she was at Nine Elms toward the end I still have my Ian Allan Locoshed books from summer 1960, summer 1961 and 1962; she is listed at 70A in all three.

 

I once heard she was set aside because she was a short frame veriant , was she one of the last of that type, as opposed to the longer frame types such as 30055 ?

 

This gets more and more odd....

Casserley's Preserved Locomotives from 1974 lists it as 'not at present on public view' - no help there! The photo depicts it with SWR on the tanks but does not say when the picture dates from.

 

After withdrawal, she was painted up on one side in a poor resemblance of LSWR livery , for the film young winston , she was in this state at the last Brighton station open day when she and other engines that were in store at Preston Park were drawn up into the station .

 

When the list of official preserved locos was drawn up, it was general that the first, or oldest surviving member of the class was earmarked, which is why 49395, although rather knackered, was put aside.
Did 245 initially go to the store at Hellifield? Not certain about that, though.

 

I'll draw the file tomorrow and get back to folks!

 

Well, that would certainly be the case with 245 - fourth engine of the class built, but the oldest survivor by 1962 (see my post above). Not sure where it hid between 1962 and 1982 though, nor how much work it had beyond a repaint in 1982...

Tom

 

It certainly was at Preston Park for some of that, and Hellifield, but the file will tell all!

 

Thanks Anthony - much appreciated!

Tom

 

Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread so far. Most interesting. I especially appreciated seeing the link to the photo of 30245 - the first one I have ever seen.

 

The oldest M7 still working when withdrawn – built 1897 and therefore of the ‘short’ type (the Swanage one is of the ‘long’ type).

Initially stored at Stratford works - with 7 other locomotives and restored Derby

Haven’t pulled the file yet, more to come.

 

I think that the loco was painted at Preston Park in the late 60s for the film "Oh What a lovely War" (scenes of which were filmed at Brighton station) and not "Young Winston".

Peter James

 

Thanks Anthony - most interesting. Is there a BTC file kicking about the NRM on what the selection policy was in the early 1960s for the National Collection? We all have our favourite "missing" loco types, just wondered if there was a formal policy declaration on what those making (inevitably invidious) decisions with limited storage space and (at best, I suspect) official indifference were told to try and do?

(And if you ever decided to reboiler her for operation, build two and I can add a 700 Black Motor to the new builds list....!)

 

Now that is a class I would dearly love to see...

 

Why stop there? If you had four boilers, you could have a Black Motor, a C8, a K10 and still have one left over for the M7...

(Better stop now before Paul Hitch comes and breaks up the party

Tom

 

Rumpole -

Me too - there seems to have been an elegant simplicity to them, and the humble 0-6-0 is significantly under-represented in preservation. Seems as a 3F or 4F that it would also actually be quite a useful heritage line loco. Any idea what it could pull at Swanage?

Tobbes