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LYN

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by lynbarn, Aug 23, 2010.

  1. lynton&barnstaple

    lynton&barnstaple New Member

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    I would just like to ask if 'The Engineer' has contributed anything to the 762 project or is he just doing his best to undermine it?

    Quote from Engineer
    "However its not quite like doing the project in house where you can shop around for the best deals on the specific bits you want and get a lot of it done as favours.
    ;)
    No one builds things as cheap and as good as you do it yourself. Of course you need the works and the men to do it and some knowledge."

    Back to that one are we? Sorry, I forgot, you are the only one who knows anything about railway engineering.
     
  2. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer New Member

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    Hello Everyone

    I asked a question the question was genuine the answer is yet to be forcomming from anyone, what is the expected price of building this loco?
    I have had a lot of insult and speculation, but no answer.

    It was 350 shares of £762.00, then it was £350,000.00 is it true that it is now £475,000.00
    and 2016, it would appear so, could someone confirm.

    Now as I am quite genuine as a person and quite generous.

    To John or Lynton&Barnstalple

    The answer to your first question is no, I have not contributed to the project LYN or 762 club although I have in the past contributed to many other L&B orientated things, I will expand on why? Seing as your so interested.

    I don't like the person who is promoting 762 for various reasons all of which are genuine, and one of the beef's I had was about building to a price.
    I have nothing in common with most of those supporting building LYN well it doesen't seem like it anyway.
    I am not a fan of Yankee designs of steam locos but they work, and I am not knocking the original design The Yanks did some good and ground breaking stuff with steam.
    BUT
    Having said all that, I would have got involved and assisted with building a replica Lyn, I would have happily contributed both time thought and resources to that end, had it have been a project , that the promoters saw to build as a project on the L&B with genuine L&B people who wanted to get their hads dirty and make the bits, in a workshop, not just pay someone else to do the work.

    "I forgot, you are the only one who knows anything about railway engineering".

    I am hardly this person and I think that is just you trying to slurr, but I do care about the quality of the things I build, or the products of the groups I work with.
    I care that the end product is fit for purpose and is to the best standard that can be acheived with the time resources and men.

    Well John, or "Lynton&Barnstaple", you must be very important with a name like that.

    Your closely involved in what is happening on the LYN front i know you are, so would you like to answer my first question, as I have been good enough to answer your question.

    For the other readers. Lyn could have been built in Devon , if it had been, it would have got the support of a great many more people, it would probably be nearing completion by now and it would probably have come in at about £225,000.00 Finished.

    The Lynton&Barnstaple is a very diverse animal, it has many faces and many habitats, not just the one which is portrayed on its web site or its magazine or its objectives.

    Currently part of it characeture is hibernating, but it will awake to a new dawn.

    Just because there is a project or two going on, other people still have interests in other aspects of the L&B, you can't own or control the L&B only small parts of it, for limited amounts of time. That is all.


    You can spend as much money as you like doing something, but the L&B is a project of people not money just remember that.


    An engineer.


     
  3. lynton&barnstaple

    lynton&barnstaple New Member

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    All roads lead to the Engineer. Whatever the issue, you always eventually get around to stating that things should be built at some L&B workshop in Devon, presumably with you at the helm.

    Others, however feel it is too soon to have a Devon Boston Lodge. They are the ones supporting the project. You do not, so put up or shut up.
     
  4. Old Kent Biker

    Old Kent Biker Member

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    Andy,
    Like many organisations, the 762 Club is not normally prepared to respond to such questions in an open forum. They have their formal channels. If you or your man want an official response, contacting the 762 Club directly is the best course of action. Any other response would be mere speculation.
     
  5. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer New Member

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    Thanks Martyn for your sensible response.

    For the benifit of other readers.

    I quote 762 club site Oct 2011 news top of page 10
    http://762club.com/images/762ClubNewsletter4-1110.pdf

    My view leading up to the year 2000 long before thinking of building Lew or Lyn or anything else come to that, was that the L&B really did have a chance to be rebourn as a unique product.

    To do that with its own identity , own loco's and rolling stock, it could only do it in its true form by doing it independantly of any other establishment in the uk or abroad.

    Being independant in all aspects of what it was to do, was the most efficient and most sensible way to take the project forward and have stability.

    I never set out with the others to slavishly copy what others did, or to entice their thinking or products into the L&B.

    Those people and establishments , may be good at what they do in their eyes and the eyes of their followers and supporters.

    I had no vision of being a sole operator or having "my own workshop", meerly a supporter of others who wanted to acheive objectives, that were the way they saw the New L&B being grown, and enevitably the products such as LEW would have followed, because that was what they wanted, not me. I am just an engineer , I make anything not just steam train bits.

    The L&B workshops could have built Lyn at a very attractive price, it was building equipment for a very large and reputable organisation, and had approvals too for that work.

    Many people have come on here to try and deny that the L&B should have its own workshops, by saying boston Lodge is the be all and end all of NG in the UK.The reason is that when as a person you don't have the skill and aptitude to actually create a product, in its flesh, then you can only go and pay someone else to do it.

    That is where I and a few others, stand apart form others.

    Oh so you think your the only source in the world for this stuff , sorry boys you have competition in town.

    Remember, without its own workshops the L&B would not even be what it is today, because that is where the New L&B was built in its workshops.

    Lets get back on topic can you afford to build Lyn at £490,000.00 and how much will it really cost by the time you get there?

    The numbers are all getting a bit too big for the group and the pockets contributing.


    But have a Nice day .


     
  6. Jark91

    Jark91 New Member

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    Goodness. The price appears to have risen by £15,000 in the last two hours! Let's hope Lyn is completed by next week or we'll be into the hundreds of millions before long...
     
  7. SpudUk

    SpudUk Member

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    Am I the only one who thinks that the L&B aren't in the right place at the moment to have their own locomotive works, which could potentially be a real drain on limited resources?

    Furtermore, nice to see another L&B thread descend into madness...
     
  8. Crazy Train29

    Crazy Train29 New Member

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    Quite right spud. The L&B dont need a large loco works a la boston lodge atm. the present shed at woody bay is perfectly sutiable to keep axe and sid maintained and running. One day I would like to see a 21st century pilton yard, but we need to get the line longer first.
     
  9. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    They would probably do well to emulate The Swanage Railway by having a repair shop off-site for heavy work/restoration and just a running shed at Woody Bay.
    As ever ...
     
  10. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer New Member

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    Workshops are built and substantiated as businesses, on a business case. Whilst a workshop might be opened initially and be a drain supported in its first couple of years, by a person or organisation, it must be a "profit centre" and it must be managed as such, or it must produce the product reqired more efficiently and more cost effectively than any other method.

    Your to locked into this mentality that workshops need to be supported like in council and goverment establishments, where the money keeps comming in.

    Workshops fail because of many reasons, usually not the men who work in them !! or the quality of their work, but more the product volume diminishes is taken by another manufacturer or poor management with no vision or not prepared to take a risk or without understanding of how to run a good business.




     
  11. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer New Member

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    Exactly as you suggest, it was called "Bratton Workshops" where a team much like "Southern Loco" beavered away making what was needed next and repairing things at short notice.

    The manager if you wanted to call him that, he organised the volunteers and the work, and who worked 6 days a week and was a hard task master with an eye on quality," Les" who is a dam good engineer, went home and is now working on 34058's tender.
    So we can be sure that will be a good product faithfull to detail.

    Les was responsible for the build of Several diesels all the thorpe park coaches, van 23's bogies,regauging loco's and other heavy work, he completed Gertrude and was well placed to build LEW, with the assistance of a few people who were around, he could have easily built a "Baldwin".

    The cost of operating the workshops was about £30 K per annum for which you got 1 man year of skilled labour, plus the hours of 8 regular volunteers, with skill and supervision.
    Small money compared to £350,000.00 to build a loco.


     
  12. lynton&barnstaple

    lynton&barnstaple New Member

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    OK Engineer.

    Would you care to explain why Bratton Workshop is not operating now? It might be possible that there are several viewponts here.

    I would point out that most folks who support the L&B quietly get on with their tasks. L&B threads here are disrupted by a small group of detractors who happen to disagree with the present management.

    Of course, one day, the L&B will need a 'New Pilton'.
     
  13. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    Oh please no!

    It would be really good if we could have a thread reserved for L&B news that was off limits for political points - those of us who are just mildly interested and would like to hear about progress can't see the wood for the trees.
     
  14. darkangel

    darkangel New Member

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    Oh please yes.

    The opinions voiced here are of interest to me & many others.
     
  15. lynton&barnstaple

    lynton&barnstaple New Member

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    "It would be really good if we could have a thread reserved for L&B news that was off limits for political points". Progress on the L&B is beginning to get very exciting and we can actually see how the railway will extend now.

    Oh yes, that would be wonderful. It would require moderating though.
     
  16. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer New Member

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    I have read these responses above and will without going ito gritty detail explain.
    The present management of the L&B inherited an operating railway 2006/2007 with station and shed , with its current rolling stock , but no complete steam engine, only two Diesels, there was money in the bank of the trsut and a deficit in the operating company that about ballanced.

    Admittedly there were works needed doing, and lots has been done over the last 5 years that have changed the appearance of the operation.

    With all of the railway came a working complete if not small satelite workshop, about 8 miles from the current operation at WB, this was in a small workshop unit at Bratton Flemming, its cost was about £5000 per year, rates free, in this unit were built all of the items currently being used as well as various bits of track & S&T.

    It was stated that it was closed for comercial reasons.

    In Nov2007 The current chairman took the reins from the chairman of the current company, who had been holding them for 12months, since the departure of Mike Buse.

    All of these people were fairly new to the L&B management structure, in fact some of them were very new to the L&B.

    The first statement eminating from the first trust meeting after the 2007 election was.

    "We are going to get three quotes for everything and buy by tender from the cheapest supplier" Ah right!

    The operators of the workshops who were somewhat independant but had a good proportuion of the embers behind them, had for 3 years put their best foot forward , and had a good track record of producing class items and were interested, in how this new plan would work in a rather specalised buying environment.

    We continued to produce desperately needed items for the railway, but it was clear the new men did not like the idea that they could not control us.

    Rather than work with us , they chose a route through another pass over the mountains, and cooked up a story that the workshops were to close to save money.

    I don't deny it saved money short term about £30k per year but that was a very short sighted move in a very big project.

    The managements plan was to move all the machinery and some members into the shed at WB, Where they assumed ( that is a good word, apears a lot) all would go on as it did at BF works.

    Except most of the machinery did not belong to the L&B, and the production team were rather more independant, and far sighted in their ideas.

    After having all of the potential work & projects either completed or removed, it was obvious that, this new management had their own plan.

    Save a quid now to spend thousands later.

    These thousands of pounds on which the L&B was to be built were to come from massive grants and funding, that would build Exmoor enterprise's extension to Blackmoor and all the engines and rolling stock needed to operate a big operation, and they would buy it all in.

    What happens when the money does not come.

    There never was a plan "B"


     
  17. darkangel

    darkangel New Member

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    Would that mean anything that the "official" L&B don't like gets pushed aside?.........just asking
     
  18. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer New Member

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    Some will now ask what relivance does this have to building LYN. Well LYN is a much smaller demonstration of a much bigger project.With mostly the same men steering it all.

    Well the gauntlet was thrown in 2007 by the Trusst chairman, who is alo the Chairman of 762, group/club/ whatever. Who told me emphatically that he could control cost on engineering builds, I smiled.

    Slightly before him the previous Trust Chairman, now the MD of the operating company in 2006, now a big mover behind the scenes of building LYN, told me I am going to show you how to build a railway.

    So far the evidence has shown there is no control over the cost of building a loco called LYN, and there was no massive grant funding to build a railway, as I told the now MD back in 2006 on a track bed walk at Chelfham, your just hi-jacking a good project on some pretext that your possibly going to build a railway with massive grant funding.

    Well with LYN there is no grant its all down to those putting theirhands in their pockets.
    Its looking very much like a possible "Ilfracombe branch"

    But we will see.

     
  19. Old Kent Biker

    Old Kent Biker Member

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    Not necesarily. The Trust would not get officially involved in any such group, and it would depend on a) the rules set by the group moderators, and b) the actions of those moderators in enforcing them.

    Also of critical importance to my mind, is respecting the rule of law, personal privacy, commercial confidentiality and basic common decency.

    As an example, and contrary to the beliefs of some posters in this thread, the Yahoo eGroup that I run has no restriction against discussions that criticise the L&B Trust or any associated groups. Whilst that group is entirely independent of the L&B Trust, it is supposedly for those supporting the L&B, rather than anyone opposing it, which has to be borne in mind. The main reason for intervention (against a very few of the posts) is the reducing of reasoned and reasonable disagreements into petty, political, personal insults, repeating the same old, same old comments, dwelling on past actions that cannot be changed, and constantly repeating the same old, same old stale opinions ad nauseum. Apart from those few situations, discussions can be quite amusing, enlightening (even to the acknowledged experts in the subject) and even occasionally beneficial to the greater L&B, and require a bare minimum of intervention. I'm not sure I and my moderators always get it 100% right, but it can be done well.
     
  20. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer New Member

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    You will no doubt agree Lynbarn58 you have declined to post up quite a few of my offers of postings on your "Exmoor-NG" site because you consider them abrasive , not happy happy , oh they are not going to help the common cause, but not that they are a factual correct view.

    So to anyone asking yes Exmoor-NG is sensored.


     

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