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LSWR T3 563

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by nick813, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. LSW Man

    LSW Man New Member

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    I know about the 4 sub coach being scrapped but, being born in the 1990's, this was before my time.

    I also know about the LSWR ambulance coach from Bicester but, from what I can remember, this moved to NRM basically to mark 100 years or so since WW1 and to represent the role of the railways at war time.

    The coach I am talking about was neither of these. This coach was painted in LSWR salmon and brown (which I believe is a slightly incorrect shade at least that is what Southern Email Group described) along with the tri composite brake coach which is still at the NRM. There are no photographs of it anymore on the internet but it was definitely there.

    Cheers for now.
     
  2. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

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    All I can say is that over the last 10-12 years, and a number of visits, I have no recollection of such an LSWR carriage at the NRM, and certainly not paired with the tri-composite.
     
  3. torgormaig

    torgormaig Well-Known Member Friend

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    I agree - and I've lived within walking distance of the Museum ever since it opened in 1975. There never was a second LSWR liveried coach here. Your memory is playing tricks on you I'm afraid, LSW Man.

    Peter
     
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  4. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    The explanation is really perfectly simple. The additional coach is part of the government's "strategic reserve" of LSWR coaches. As we all know, steel-bodied coaches will be useless in the event of nuclear war, so a large number of LSWR semi-elliptical roof vehicles are maintained at a secret underground storage location (this design of coach having been identified as more resistant to nuclear attack than arc-roofed coaches). The NRM obtained one of these vehicles on loan in the early 90s afyer thr end of the cold war but, due to the increased threat level from Russia, it has now been returned to secure storage.

    Obviously.

    Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
     
  5. jma1009

    jma1009 Member

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    And there are rather more important things to be considered such as fundraising for the overhaul and boiler repairs, and the tender repairs, for the T3.

    There are a number of rotting LSWR carriages all over the place. No one has given them any attention since buying from BR, except for 2, neither on the Swanage.

    I don't mind if the T3 hauls BR Mark 1 carriages.

    The priority is to ensure the T3 locomotive gets in steam again after 70 years!

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
  6. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Then it must with with everything else in Box Tunnel. :D
     
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  7. Avonside1972

    Avonside1972 New Member

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    More of a general historical question here. Been flicking through the LSWR Stock Book by Peter Cooper and noticed a comment against one of the pictures of 245, stating that it was repainted in 1982, however the livery shade used is now known to be inaccurate and it is planned to be amended. I wonder what this means and have the amendments been carried out?
    Also looking through has reminded me that 488 carried Drummond livery in the 70's and I don't remember that being as dark a green as 245.
    So is/was either one right or wrong and is either appropriate to 563's new livery?
    Thanks in advance.
     
  8. 007

    007 Member

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    At this stage the plan is for 563 to go into the livery which is similar to No.245. So the darker green. Attached is a photo of how the engine is intended to be out shopped.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Avonside1972

    Avonside1972 New Member

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    Thanks, guess my memory must be wrong about 488 or were there 2 passenger greens? All very confusing! especially reading an online article suggesting Parsons Green was the first Southern livery followed by Sage Green, I thought Sage was the first shade followed by Olive and Parsons was a Bulleid colour? Think I'd best go and seek a darkened room!
     
  10. Daddsie71b

    Daddsie71b Member Friend

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    Except with the L and W tippexed out on the tender? :)
     
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  11. bluetrain

    bluetrain New Member

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    It would be interesting to see a photo of the NRM M7 & coach in the open air, to get a better appreciation of the colours than under the subdued lighting of the Station Hall. I think there used to be such a photo on the NRM web-site, but I cannot now find it.

    According to Hamilton Ellis, LSWR carriages were originally all-over chocolate, but some Joseph Beattie carriages were varnished teak or mahogany. Lighter upper-panels appeared in the 1870s, initially of a "dark cream or green-cheese complexion". OS Nock states that the carriage livery was finalized during the period 1885-1905 when W Panter was carriage superintendent. Nock describes this livery as "chocolate and orange-yellow", specifically rejecting the use of the term "salmon". But HE's description is "dark brown below waist with upper panels in 'salmon', a sort of brownish-pink that grew browner with age". In another passage, HE wrote "while the upper panels were rather like tinned salmon when quite new, they weathered into a terracotta brown after about a week".

    The "week" was doubtless an exaggeration, but if Hamilton Ellis was correct to say that the colour altered with weathering and age, that might help to explain the varying descriptions of the LSWR carriage colours. An illustration in Ellis' book "The Trains We Loved" shows colours part-way between the NRM and Bluebell representations.

    One final thought - did the LSWR inspire the short-lived "Jaffa Cake" livery used on London commuter trains in the mid-1980s?
     
  12. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    Going from memory here but I am faiy sure 245 was later repainted, into the same shade (or near enough) as the model in the photograph recently posted.

    Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
     
  13. 35B

    35B Part of the furniture

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    This is the picture from the NRM website - https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories#&gid=1&pid=16


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Reading up in "Southern Style" (the HMRS volume on liveries), a few things jump out about the salmon and chocolate livery. (This livery, incidentally, seems to have been introduced in the late 1870s, but was preceded by a livery of brown and yellow).

    The first is that for LSWR carriages in general, surviving patches of original paint are fairly rare, since SR practice seems to have been to have cleaned carriages down to bare wood / metal before repainting. So the paint samples that exist primarily come from vehicles withdrawn still in LSWR days.

    From those, it appears that the salmon colour gradually darkened over the 25 or so years after its introduction. (Specifically I mean as darkened in shade originally applied; not just because of weathering).

    The salmon colour had a large proportion of lead white in its composition, which is a pigment known to darken with age as a result of exposure to atmospheric sulphur; that means carriages in general would have darkened as the paint aged. LSWR practice was that carriages were planned to last for about five years between repaints, though longer periods were not rare, particularly after World War 1. Some salmon and chocolate carriages lasted well into SR days, by which time the livery must have been very tatty.

    During World War 1, certain pigments became difficult to obtain. One of those was chrome yellow, which was a constituent of the salmon colour; a consequence was that apparently the colour as applied during the first world war became paler and pinker.

    There is some evidence that there was a darkening in shade of the chocolate colour as applied after 1905. More significantly, probably around World War 1 this changed to a shade described as "near black"; before reverting to dark brown after the war; shortage of certain pigments seems a likely explanation.

    Weathering and varnishing would have modified all those colours.

    Tom
     
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  15. torgormaig

    torgormaig Well-Known Member Friend

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    As requested, here are a couple of pictures taken on 30/6/2011 during the shunt to set up the current display in station Hall - this would have been the last time that they were out in the fresh air.
    IMG_3674 copy.jpg IMG_3692 copy.jpg

    Hope they are of interest

    Peter
     
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  16. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    What a smart coach livery, looks similar to the L & Y colour scheme
     
  17. martin1656

    martin1656 Part of the furniture Friend

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    imagine those two sat in the Bay at Swanage, for the launch day whilst 563 at the head of a 2, 0r even 3, coach LSWR rake departs the main platform , whilst 499 sits in the loop with a freight .
     
  18. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    ..... and a visiting 488 sat on shed. :)
     
  19. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    Many thanks for those Peter. Those are the first close-up views of the NRM's 6474 I have seen taken in daylight, and they suggest that the upper panels of that vehicle have a much more "orange" shade than 1520 as restored by the Bluebell. (For comparison I attach one of my own photos of 1520 taken in 2017).

    However as Tom says, liveries are a minefield and colour perception is subjective anyway!
     

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  20. weltrol

    weltrol Member

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    Liveries are indeed a minefield, never mind how to interpret 'Salmon Pink', how about 'Nipple Pink'?
     

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