If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

LSWR T3 563

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by nick813, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes Received:
    2,272
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Its an interesting observation that in Dante's "Inferno" the very worst sinners, the traitors, are not roasting, but buried in ice...
     
    andrewshimmin, 35B and jnc like this.
  2. D6332found

    D6332found New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    86
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dinting
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The Certain magazine is clearly in the Sun/Mail/Express class of rag.
    Perhaps the Railway Museum should derogate 563 so if its owner tire of it/go bust it is returned to the Collection?
    Excellent news on the bottom end... there may be others in such good condition too?
     
    sem34090 likes this.
  3. stephenvane

    stephenvane Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    398
    The NRM did specify that they should be given first refusal, should the Swanage railway ever decide to dispose of 563.
     
    sem34090 likes this.
  4. D6332found

    D6332found New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    86
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dinting
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Don't see what the fuss is about if correct.
     
    sem34090, jnc and paullad1984 like this.
  5. 007

    007 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    249
    That is correct, the contract states that the NRM is to be given first refusal should the SRT ever wish to dispose of No.563. They won't want to dispose of it but its certainly another layer of protection.
     
    sem34090 likes this.
  6. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Messages:
    9,870
    Likes Received:
    13,646
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Barrister
    Location:
    Stogumber
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Do you mean ‘designate’ ?

    Robin
     
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    29,266
    Likes Received:
    12,805
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Don’t buy the thing.
     
    Daddsie71b likes this.
  8. RichardSalmon

    RichardSalmon New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2006
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    33
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Redhill
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That always looks at first sight like a sensible suggestion, but actually the problem with a loan is that the railway taking the loco on loan is looking at investing a lot of time and effort into the restoration and then a few years later the loco could be re-called from loan and sent somewhere else instead. If on the other hand it is given the locomotive, it can think long-term about the best way to overhaul the locomotive, and if major boiler work is needed, a proper renewal that might be good for 20 years (2 tickets) could be contemplated instead of a cheaper repair which might be good for just 7-10 years.

    The standard loan period in the museum world is limited generaly to 10 years. That's not nearly long enough for major expense to be justified. Hence when Bluebell placed Bulleid coach 1456 on free loan to the Mid Hants the loan period was 25 years.
     
  9. Hirn

    Hirn New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    133
    Gender:
    Male
    Could we learn from property leases over this? An old fashioned country estate had a lot of tied cottages that it could not afford to modernise: the solution was leases
    which required the houses to be brought up to a set standard directly after which it could be occupied for a term of years for a nominal rent and then handed back improved
    and in sound condition.

    Interestingly the term of years was about 30. There was a balance between the work to be done, the length of the lease and how much was paid. Everybodies interests
    had to reasonably coincide - and this to be accepted by people who were not specialist experts.
    Houses in the landscape and rolling stock are both keeping for the future something long term.

    The analogy is not perfect but I think sound. Possibly the the main difference is that there is a lot of property and property has never been a small matter in any way: the conventions over it and property law are - long term - highly developed: planners, building codes, architects, developers, builders,
    contractors, surveyors, clerks of works, building inspectors. As Bob Meanley put it in his report on Flying Scotsman anything bigger than small running repairs and
    the few people who can do it are a "cottage industry". This makes it difficult to have a fallback from amicable oversight with trust.
     
  10. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    645
    The other side of the coin is that a loan means more administration for the museum. They have to keep checking up on the exhibit at regular intervals to make sure that it is still being properly cared for.
     
  11. Hirn

    Hirn New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    133
    Gender:
    Male
    Absolutly, but incumbent as the exercise of a duty of continuing care.
     
  12. sem34090

    sem34090 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2018
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    120
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Where Summer comes soonest...
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    When the news first came about the beautiful thing that is the T3 (And I say that as a 'Brighton devotee) I was very much against it. I took the view of "It belongs to us, why was it given? What's next? Why is there a Bullet Train allowed to stay in the collection whilst our own heritage is being given away?".

    Then, a month later, I saw the state of the poor thing at Corfe Castle. It had hardly had the respect and care that such a machine deserves and since then I've held the view that the move to Swanage was for the best, even though (personally) I would have much rather seen it on the MHR (I'm biased!). I am so glad that one day the machine will live again, and perhaps may even tackle the Alps of the Mid Hants. Even better if some LSWR coaches (From Embsay, Bluebell, etc) could be collected together to join it. What a fine sight that'd make at Medstead! I suspect it would be an immensely popular move with our stationmaster too...

    Anyway, what I really wanted to say is how I feel that perhaps it is underestimated as to just how good a condition some of the NRM's locos are in. If I remember correctly, a good number of them were not merely repainted and brought up to scratch cosmetically, but were given full overhauls upon withdrawal. I seem to remember that the remaining SECR D falls into this category, and possibly even the likes of the E4, the LTSR Atlantic Tank, maybe even 'Boxhill' (restored around the same time as the T3) and possibly 'Gladstone' (though 91 years of being static will have most likely taken its toll). If the NRM is running out of space, and even out of resources, then perhaps an agreement similar to that mentioned above for cottages could be come to which would see some of these, possibly in very good mechanical and external condition, machines returning to use across the country where they may be enjoyed by more people. York and Shildon are a long way away for some of us.

    I hope that isn't too confusing.
     
  13. Shaggy

    Shaggy Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,615
    Likes Received:
    839
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    72B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    An update hit my Facebook feed earlier today:

    https://www.facebook.com/124986284840596/posts/259870138018876/

    For those unable to access via the link:

    "The 563 team visited the Flour Mill on Friday to meet with the team working on the engine and discuss the next steps with the boiler inspector.
    The Flour Mill team have carefully extracted the inner firebox which will now be preserved and eventually moved to the railway to be exhibited. In the meantime it will serve as a pattern.
    All this progress has pointed to the fact that the 563 team and Flour Mill now feel that the engine is restorable and we will work with the owner, the SRT to formulate plans going forward into 2019.
    Any overhaul will be subject to the SRT consent and be subject to successful fundraising so it’s return to steam isn’t a forgone conclusion at this stage, however we are optimistic.
    More updates and in depth pictures coming soon."
    563.jpg
     
    SpudUk, John Petley, CH 19 and 20 others like this.
  14. martin1656

    martin1656 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    11,498
    Likes Received:
    6,233
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It quite educating seeing the old inner firebox fully exposed like that, what I find interesting is that it looks like the failed metal was cut out in the corners and rather than copper weld in new material plates were riveted to cover the removed section of plate, was this because copper welding is a relative new skill and boiler shops stuck to tried and tested methods?
     
    S.A.C. Martin and Monkey Magic like this.
  15. Hermod

    Hermod New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    132
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Klitmoeller,Denmark
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Will the new firebox be steel or copper?
     
  16. ianh

    ianh New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    98
    Occupation:
    Farmer -
    Location:
    Brecon In Wettest Wales
    Looks more like they used patch screws than rivets..... i bet the box never came out.
     
  17. Daddsie71b

    Daddsie71b Member Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    350
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    durzet
    OK, so the project is feasible.

    Where do I sign up for the 365 (anagram of 356 or reversal of its number 563) club?

    £1 a day, sooo easy to market.

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
    Sunnieboy, Quicksilver2510 and SpudUk like this.
  18. jma1009

    jma1009 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    607
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    What a fascinating pic! Thanks to Shaggy for posting same!

    Whilst comment has so far been concentrated on the front corners of the firebox, there is also a further patch repair to the left hand side of the inner firebox.

    My personal view is that after taking an extensive photographic record of the copper inner firebox, it should be sold for scrap to help pay for a new inner firebox.

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
    240P15 and jnc like this.
  19. 007

    007 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    249
    The inner box is now going to be preserved and the SRT will not be scrapping it. It will be cleaned up, areas of interest highlighted and displayed on the railway. As an artefact it is quite something to behold.
    The box is extensively cracked around the door ring and there is a massive crack running between two stays on the opposite side. The patching is intricate, well done and interesting to look at. We can see how things are done on the waterside in amazing detail. It shows how patch screws work, shows exactly what quilting is and how wastage occurs. It has been an extremely worthwhile undertaking getting it out in one piece and it will stay as one piece.

    Really the only thing now standing in the way of a return to steam is finance.
     
  20. 8126

    8126 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2014
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    547
    Gender:
    Male
    Copper welding will have existed by the time that repair was done, but it's by no means a straightforward process even now and I don't know if it was ever done in railway workshops in the steam age. Because it's got such superb thermal conductivity and a high heat capacity, copper is usually welded with the help of copious amounts of preheat and the poor bloody welder melting under his mask, even on much lighter sections than that. An in-situ repair crossing two plates of a riveted lap seam like that ... forget it. The copper welding repairs to the flanges of Stowe's inner firebox have been on display at a few MHR galas in recent times, if you knew what you were looking at, but they were on the dismantled plates.
     
    S.A.C. Martin likes this.

Share This Page