LSWR T3 563

Do you know that, or are you just assuming things - most of these and other issues were discussed at some length regarding the Foxfield North Staffs acquisition - may I suggest those that did not read all that at the time do so before posting here, otherwise we'll end up going over the same ground again?

 

People who until recently owned 563 and would quite like to know why it has been disposed of, where this will end, and moreover why people affiliated with the Swanage Railway are coming on here and insulting folk who have legitimate concerns about the current direction of the National Railway Museum. Or, if you prefer, 'armchair curators'. There are lots of sore winners on Purbeck today.

As I said, I'm happy for the Swanage Railway. Good luck to it. But I'm not happy about the fact that this formerly publicly owned cultural asset has been disposed of, and I can't say that this kind of gloating is doing the new owners of the engine any favours at all.

 

Well done, but where is going to displayed? A small non rail connected shed at Norden P&P acting as a "gate guardian" and well away fro the sea air would be a good solution, if you can get planning permission. Would be a nice introduction to the railway.

 

Whats the betting that the next 'gift' will be the 4F 4027 - at one time at the GWSR - now for some reason gone to the so far hypothetical 'Vale of Berkley Railway'

 

And if the NRM are short of space they could start by getting rid of the totally irrelevant Japanese Bullet Train that somehow qualifies for permanent display in the 'Great Hall'

 

Know that, as a former Trustee of an acredited museum...........(but nothing to do with railways)

 

I don't disagree - but the promise in the press release is perpetual.

 

It also refers to a collections policy. I have no doubt that the process has been complied with, and that all is above board. What puzzles me is what this says about the NRM and how it is developing.

 

My interest is more in the "how it is delveloping" aspect, particularly if that applies to objects held by the Science Museum as a whole, not just the NRM.
I can think of one particular non-rail item that they have in store at Wroughton that will never have anything done to it by them (they have had it in their ownership over 60 years now..) which would be better returned to an (acredited) museum in its place of manufacture/operation!

 

And again, previous disposals have for the most part been of items of limited importance. The 50 was in the Collection because 'Sir Edward Elgar' was briefly on display at York, the punters liked it, and so the NRM decided to claim one from BR on the basis that they might as well get one while they could. The Nord Compound was obtained because in the absence of a GWR de Glehn Compound it filled a gap in the story of Swindon express passenger locomotive development - City, Compound, Star, Castle, King - but it was never an easy fit. The NSR tank was a bit of a mongrel of questionable importance to the NRM but of great importance to NSR preservationists. And so on. I can see no justification for the disposal of 563 other than that it looks a bit like some other engines in the Collection.

 

But it hasnt been 'disposed of'.

If it had gone under the cutters torch then it would have been disposed of but is is probably going to be more widely accessible and seen and enjoyed than it ever would have been in the NRM. It has a better chance of steaming than it would have in NRM ownership. It better tells the story of LSWR locomotive history than it would have at the NRM. Surly people can get past the notion of 'ownership' and see that this is a judgement about what the best way for the artifacts to educate and be enjoyed by the public.

I'm not privy to the NRM collections polocy or the case for deaccession but this is surly what they must have taken in to consideration in reaching this decision. I suspect that you don't get to be curators and trustees of a national body like the science museum without some sort of vision, consensus and knowing what you are doing.

If ownership is the big issue for you then I suggest you become a member of Swanage Railway Trust. For a mere £20 or so you can have a much larger slice and say in it than you ever did when sharing it with 64 million other people.

 

I'd like to see it running. I'd like to see everything in the National Collection running. But a great deal of important material would have to be replaced and I can't understand the logic of withdrawing 4771 and 3440 on the basis that further repairs would compromise their historical integrity and not applying the same principles to 563.

 

It would be wiser if the NRM or parent body set out the general policy it is seeking to implement before it goes further with what seems on the face of it a rather arbitrary and piecemeal approach. Stakeholders and interested parties deserve no less.

 

We have been here before on this subject - however while the British, as a nation may love to hanker after the past - far too many use that as an excuse not to embrace the future (warts and all), or more worryingly fail to recognise that post WW2 and loss of the colonies, the UK is blatantly not the panicle of Engineering / manufacturing that it once was (particularly given our countrys reliance on the Finance and service industry to generate most of our GDP). This means that to tell the story of rail travel in the UK the NRM has to move beyond our shores when it comes to exhibits that demonstrate what is driving current trends as regards railways.

The Bullet train IS relevant to the History of railway travel in the UK. The Bullet train was the thing that showed the world that rail transport was not an outdated mode of travel doomed to dies under the onslaught of planes and automobiles (as was confidently predicted by those in the corridors of power in the UK), it is nothing less than the modern version of the Rocket - showing the world rail travel was not 'dead' and what could be achieved by high speed rail travel post 1964, just as the Rocket showed that steam locomotives could transform travel between cities in the 1829.

The NRM is NOT simply a museum dedicated to showing stuffed and mounted items the UK used to operate on its railways in the past, it is designed to illustrate the railway story - both from its very beginnings AND how it continues to develop. The Bullet train is what inspired the French TGV, the original Eurostar (and now that the UK has belatedly decided to embrace what other countries have invested in for decades) the future HS2 stock. I'm also sure it also had an influence on those who developed the HST, and APT concepts in the UK - (not technical of course given the way said trains were forced to use or Victorian infrastructure) but in the imaginative and positive way both projects projected confidence in InterCity rail travel.

Finally, had the Rocket been one of several identical designs, and had they survived into the modern era then I'm sure other 'National' railway museums would have like to have one on display. Yes Britain may have given the world railways - but in the modern age its others that leea the way and the NRM has a duty to reflect that as time goes on. In 50 years or so, The Bullet train, next to a Eurostar power car and maybe one of the first generation vehicles from HS2 would be a very worthy exhibit for the Great Hall.

 

Right, here we go folks. After looking at the SR Facebook page it seems that people on there have been asking the same questions posted on NP.
Below are the two responses so far from the SR. (Yes, she will be "bathing in the salty sea air" at Swanage for a while ).

We are currently working through the options as to where T3 563 will be on display for a period of time most probably at Swanage Station. It is a long term aspiration to restore her to full working order but presently there are no funded plans to do so.
17 · 6 hrs
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Swanage Railway As stated it is an aspiration to restore her to full working order. To achieve that a significant sum of money will be required. Currently the SR is raising funds for a number of major projects including the Swanage Water Tower project, the Moguls (3) project, the Swanage Pit Project. Neverthless anything is possible and we are confident that in the long term such a restoration will be achieved.

 

I would like to add, at no point have I come on here to upset anyone or annoy anyone. I know all are not happy, but I can assure you that our social media has gone wild with excitement, with 95% of posts supportive and those 95% are members of the public just like you and me who have had a share in the NRM.

Please, don't let the Swanage Railway be a target. The SRT has taken it on because it wants the best for it, it wants to share it with all of you. It doesn't want to hide it, it is acutely aware of its display limitations and wants to improve things, but sometimes things are available in the here and now and not when you might be quite ready. However the railway has overcome sheer mountains before and No.563 will truly be the jewel in the crown of this railway.

563 will be a catalyst for change at the railway and its inclusion will do so much for the railway. So I do apologise if anyone is hurting tonight, but its not being taken away, its actually being given a visible, dazzling future that all can take part in.

 

Neither answer really fills me with confidence.

Firstly, even if ultimately the Swanage Railway is a good long-term home for the loco, I don't believe the NRM should be disposing of assets that have secure undercover storage unless the prospective home can already offer storage of at least the same security. Instead, it feels that the NRM have disposed of an asset with nothing more than a vague hope that it might in the future be stored undercover, and no commitment from the railway to address that situation - especially given, as noted above, the level of capital projects clamouring for funds around the railway. "Anything is possible" isn't quite a funded plan for undercover storage.

As for restoration to running condition: I think you have to look at each case on its merits, but a loco that has essentially been hardly used since before the Second World War (the steamings in 1948 for the Waterloo centenary were very limited, and nothing since) seems to make a stronger case for preservation of original fabric than many other locos of comparable vintage that have been steamed in modern times.

Tom

 

I think that when they decide to preserve a Pacer ,to create the space in the great hall they should send 'Lode Star' out to be restored for main use.

Bob.

 

As long as you look after a loco then being parked outside isn't as bad as people make out. To make a point, here is Manston after 9 years of "salty sea air"

 

I would suggest it perhaps reflects a change of emphasis. Rather than collecting a lot of stuff which the museums then struggle to find space to display in a suitable context for todays visitors (which could be desribed as "Jack of all trades, master of none") there is lots of merit to reducing the things you have to care for so the remaining items can can be looked after in more sustainable way.

As regards railway heritage (particularly locos) the NRM is fortunate that the UK has a large number of Heritage railways - many of whom are perfectly sound and sensible people to transfer items too. As is noted the T3 is a ex LSWR locomotive and as such the Swangae Railway is an appropriate organisation to take her on.

In fact if you look at things carefully its easy to find plenty of positives in this disposal. While not wishing to imply anything discourteous to the Swanage Railway, by virtue of being a relative late starter on the preservation scene, they lack the variety that other railways such as the Severn Valley or the Bluebell have in loco terms. With the notable exception of the M7 and the N class, every other loco they have is already represented on another line - where as the Bluebell has at least 4 locos found nowhere else for example. With the arrival of the T3 the Swanage will now boost its 'unique loco' tally to three and hopefully attract more visitors as a result. Equally while the T3 is a lovely locomotive - when on display at York or Shildon, there are plenty of other equally (or more) lovely locomotives around competing for the limelight so to speak - where as at the Swanage, the T3 will stand out.

The only concern really about this is that unlike the Foxfield railway, the Swanage don't really have anywhere suitable to display her - as in a dry (without things like nesting birds to deposit their droppings on her as tends to happen to locos on the middle shed road at Sheffield Park.) and preferably climate controlled publicly accessible building. One hopes that the NRM / Swanage Railway already have a plan to address this - but if they don't then it does pose serious questions about the NRMs motives and whether all is as it appears - because without a decent storage / display / restoration option being put in place things could potentially go very wrong in a decades time or so.