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LSWR T3 563

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by nick813, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Perhaps a general railway related satire thread may be in order?
    Although some things are beyond parody .....
     
  2. Phil Noyce

    Phil Noyce New Member

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    But that's the problem. I can't imagine it's a "do as you like" arrangement either but we just don't know - although of course as plans for 563s future are made public we will eventually. But when you get a supposedly accountable organisation like the NRM disposing of an engine which is part of the National Collection, from public to private ownership in such a secretive and underhand manner then there are serious questions that need to be answered - about 563 in particular and the future of the rest of the locos in the National Collection generally. It has also become very clear that the SRT and Swanage Railway had the transfer dropped on them out of the blue at very short notice in a "take it or leave it" manner.
    The NRM are the ones who should take the flak over this, but unfortunately the SRT and Swanage Railway have unfairly and unjustifiably been caught up in the crossfire over a situation which is not of their making.
     
  3. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Totally agree with that post. SRT, as I have said, are in principle indisputably sound custodians. This is less about the particular and more about the concerns created by the general way the matter has been managed. It really cries out for a policy statement using this as an example of further implementation.
     
  4. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    I completely agree with you there Phil, the SRT and Swanage Railway as a whole have been getting a lot blame and complaints thrown at them for this, when really I would say the only people to be squarely held responsible for this is the NRM. The sheer abruptness, not to mention unhanded and shady nature of it, the supposed custodians of our national collection have gone about this affair is down right inconsiderate and just plain dispicable to our country's railway heritage. The T3 Class 563 is a priceless and wonderfully example of victorian design in locomotive design, yet apparently this means little to the people in charge of the NRM these days, who seem to have discarded on the grounds of it being a 'duplication' in the museums exhibits.

    Some may have wondered why I have been so hellbent on supporting in 563's, and potentially other examples, transfer in ownership to others railways. Well my simple answer to that is quite frankly, with the way the NRM has been acted of late with this country's rich railway heritage such as 563, I would rather have them placed in the care of people that do actually recognise their true value and care for them then those at in charge of the rest of the collection.

    Pretty bad to think really, how we've come to a point that a precious item like 563 are served better OUTSIDE the national collection, then inside it... but that's just the way things seem to be going now.
     
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  5. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    It would not surprise me to learn that a need to meet some performance target by the close of financial year was behind the apparent abruptness. Quick and simple cost centre removal from the balance sheet for NRM?
     
  6. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    Perhaps in anticipation of being ordered to auction off any duplicate artefacts the curators decided to ensure the most significant ones go to a home if their choosing rather than just to the highest bidder?

    No doubt they are now having trouble finding a suitable LNWR relevant home for Columbine as they also have Cornwall. :(
     
  7. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    Even as a Great Western fan it is difficult to justify KGV's place in the National Collection of it's being slimmed down. Apart from 4003 and 4073 also in the collection; it's not unique as there are 2 other Kings, it's not in original condition and has been overhauled several times in preservation.
     
  8. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    But it is unique in (a) having visited the USA (b) represents the zenith of UK 4-6-0 design and (c) led the Return to Steam in the 1970s. As such it has a right to be within the National Collection - it is those in private hands which are "surplus" but at least their ownership does not interfere with Government funding which many suspect is the rationale behind the current dispersal.
     
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  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    If that's the rationale behind what stays and what goes, the NRM will be left with very few exhibits.
     
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  10. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    'Not in original condition' should be irrelevant as a retention criteria. How something was altered or rebuilt over its service life is always part of the story.
     
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  11. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    Given there are hardly any GWR locos in the collection ,in relation to the size f the Company and it's longevity, maybe the NER should be looked at first. The three GWR 4-6-0s neatly tell the story of development of the iconic Star loco over the following few decades , from inception to final development in BR condition.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  12. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    Swanage are only getting blame and complaints thrown at them on here methinks. It comes from people who don't really understand how non-enthusiast museum curators look at a collection. I've said it before, but I'll repeat myself. It's not about an individual exhibit for it's own sake, it's about the collection telling the story as a whole. It's also not about reducing the collection wholesale, no doubt only a handful of exhibits will be included in any slimming down operation.
     
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  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I think a lot of this is down to individual perception of how it is been handled. And for the record, I disagree vehemently with the idea that the transfer has been "underhanded", "shady" or similar...

    Quite a few people on this thread seem to be blissfully unaware of how much work actually goes into the collection, let alone the work required to actually release one.

    At the end of the day there are humans involved in this. Passionate people in the NRM and at the Swanage Railway. They are all acting in what they believe is in the best interests of the locomotive, the museum and the railway, otherwise the T3 would likely still be sat outside King's Cross station, sheeted up and with an uncertain future.

    Change is inevitable. The York museum as originally envisaged would no longer be viable in today's society. It is ludicrous to intimate that all things must stay within the national collection when the national collection is always increasing in size. You forget it's not just about locomotives and rolling stock, but archives full of information too.

    Personally speaking I think the only thing this thread has shown is that we have a number of people who believe themselves better curators of the nation's collections than the curators themselves.

    Good luck to the Swanage Railway - whether in steam or on display, I only hope its LSWR livery is restored in all its glory. At a bare minimum, it deserves nothing less. If there's an appeal to do so, I will donate.
     
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  14. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not that you're biased of course. ;)
     
  15. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I don't forget, but I do believe that the deaccession process has to be handled clearly and in an above board way - that the NRM should be like Caesar's wife, and beyond reproach.
     
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  16. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Without taking issue with the point you are making, the imperative for disposal needs to be explained as well as the rationale for 'grading' that determines whether an item is deemed surplus. Finally, the process for applying to take on an asset that has been put up for disposal should be transparent and objective if only so that suitable organisations can ready themselves to put forward a proposal. Whether or not one agrees with disposal per se, if it is to happen it should be founded upon the clearest of criteria and by application from fitting organisations, not the museum touting pieces behind closed doors.
    Again, there is no criticism implied or intended of SRT in this case whatsoever.
     
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  17. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    Are you suggesting it *hasn't* been handled clearly? The process does not require public consultation or approval. Would you be happy if they'd invited your comments but decided to de-accession anyway?

    I think much of this criticism is based on people's very personal preferences for particular railways or locos. Professional curators have to take a less-biased approach and look at the whole collection and the story it is trying to convey. This changes over time, as the story continues to develop.

    Uniqueness or mechanical stats are irrelevant. Every class of loco is unique, and you could even make individual locos unique based on their operating history. I remember a local guide referring to a historic property as something like "the finest half-timbered tile-roofed detached two-storey mid 17th century building in North East Kent" (and then they bottled it and put "probably" at the beginning).
     
  18. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    +1
     
  19. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    Itry to be objective. I'd be only too happy to have the Castle and King given away if that's what the NRM decides, not sure who'd want them though given others exist already in private hands. The Star is the most important loco here, although I'd love to see it at Didcot, although Didcot is not exactly thriving at present in my view.
     
  20. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Whatever your view the GWS at least keep their locomotives under cover...
     
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