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LSL Wales and South West Explorer

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by 5944, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    A driver though reported to have refused to take the train forward may clearly disagree.

    and here is the problem . People believing they are in a safe position does not make them safe . Having read how the masses have responded to the relaxation of restrictions and what comes across as a herd abject loss of common sense from mass gatherings to shameful littering the public come across as unable to behave
     
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  2. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    He looked about the required 2m from the track to me
     
  3. 3ABescot

    3ABescot New Member

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    Thanks again. It was indeed the class 20 running light - and shifting!
     
  4. acorb

    acorb Well-Known Member

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    This is quite possibly the most ridiculous comment I have seen from someone on this forum!! The FM gets a lot of stick (some of it justified, but mostly because he tends to exercise caution and follow the science rather than bow to back benchers and media), but I am stunned to see him linked to trespass! IMG_20210403_101641.jpg

    As someone, living under the 'Drakeford Regime', I have been enjoying the additional Welsh freedoms today and celebrating living in the county with the highest vaccination rate in Europe, by taking a trip to the seaside to photograph a Walrus at Tenby.. Mark Drakeford also ensured the sun shone all day and ice cream retailers were open. As if this thread couldn't get anymore bizarre..

    Here is a pic of the 5 awaiting recovery from Llandeilo I took on the way through. Word from locals (so accuracy not guaranteed) was that the wheel flats were caused by heavy braking also related to trespass. It is expected to be collected in a few days time by diesel and towed on wheel skates, again only what I was told. I could easily believe road transport may be the only option if multiple wheels are affected.

    I will retire to my bunker..
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
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  5. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    Whilst in that particular case I'm inclined to agree, and as I put earlier, he was clearly stood behind the "Stop, Look, Listen" sign (which sometimes is by the style/gate when sighting of the line is good, and sometimes is positioned nearer the track when you have to get closer to see, I know of some crossings where you have to climb up the embankment to the track just to see the line, so standing outside the fence is a non starter - but in that instance I wouldn't be looking to take a photo there and if I did spot a train when walking that path I would be retreating back down the embankment some way so the driver is clear that I've spotted them and retreated, because there really isn't much room between running line and the path at the point when you can see an approaching train). I think it is hard to be too prescriptive and generic. There are situations where it is reasonable to wait for a train to pass on the track side of the fence/gate, but then there are probably plenty of other circumstances where it isn't reasonable because the pedestrian could easily have seen the train approaching before passing through the gate.

    As Sidmouth suggests, just because one person feels they're in a safe position or are aware of an approaching train doesn't mean the train crew believe the same. In the posted photo I believe the person was well back and showing no intention of either not being aware of the approaching train, or of being aware and stepping out anyway. If he'd been leaning on the 'Stop' sign then the crew could potentially have had good reason to be uneasy when he could just have easily stepped back towards where he was. If you have one person stood alone waiting for a train to pass at a crossing that's a different situation to if there's a crowd of a dozen people all squashed together - all it takes is one person to shove or move and suddenly the person on the outside gets pushed out towards the passing train. If you've got people who have wandered off from the public right of way onto the land either side, well they're simply not on the public right of way and are clearly trespassing where they shouldn't be - that's simple

    When past the style/gate the crew of an approaching train are understandably going to be nervous about what the intentions/actions of a pedestrian are going to be. If there is no particular need for someone to be stood there then it is probably better for all concerned not to be, but equally different crossings are arranged differently and individual circumstances differ. I can think of another crossing where you cross the railway fence on a style, then there's a post and rail fence that guides you along parallel to the track before turning at ninety degrees to present you to the rails, someone stood on the section of the path parallel with the track is still fenced off from the running line - they'd have to run along the path, turn ninety degrees and run forwards again to get to the train. They're 'wrong side' the whole time, but the level of uncertainty over their actions and position is going to be less as they have to make a concerted effort to go from where they are to where the rails are.

    I don't know the details of the trespass event yesterday and am only writing in generic terms regarding railway foot crossings. I believe there is potentially merit to what people are saying on both sides of the discussion about being on a public right of way crossing on the railway side of the fence when a train is approaching. The crossing where I was yesterday had a timber fence leading directly from the gate to the track, I could have stood leaning on that fence - but there was no need, I had a clear view of the line whilst lingering on the field side and in so-doing it was clear to the train crew of not only the steamer but other service trains that I wasn't about to do anything unwise on the railway property.
     
  6. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    I’m not sure what that’s all about but in this case I can’t see he’s doing anything wrong. He’s standing well clear of the track on a public footpath and is obviously taking a picture, we don’t know but hopefully he raised his right arm to acknowledge the the loco whistle.
     
  7. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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  8. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    So maybe heavy braking caused wheel flats, it seems. That must have been a sustained period of locked wheels. Not a good thing to happen. Not a good thing to apparently have passed unnoticed. I wonder why that was.
     
  9. twr12

    twr12 Member

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    Bad flats on loco or tender, or both?

    I wouldn’t like to skate a B5 6’ coupled wheels!
     
  10. Romsey

    Romsey Member

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    Like isn't quite the correct response, but thanks for highlighting the stress caused to operating staff dealing with trespass.

    Cheers, Neil
     
  11. jonathonag

    jonathonag Well-Known Member

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    Quite possibly because the footplate crew were preoccupied by the said trespassers?

    In relating back to my own experience I mentioned earlier, my instant reaction was to slam the brake into emergency and stop all traffic immediately. Modern traction have WSP racks, thus mitigating against wheel slip/slide automatically yes, but take that away and I still wouldn't have been caring about the possibility of causing wheelflats. I was much more concerned about whether I was going to hit the trespassers I had in front of my train, or if any more would appear from behind lineside foliage/signage and also be at risk.

    Drivers/footplate crew are trained to the highest of standards in safety critical protocol, but when something like a near miss occurs, you are instantly flung into a high stress/adrenaline situation in an extremely short period of time. At that point we have to prioritise the concerns and manage them correctly but with speed, any action we take is held against us if we are brought to court. In this situation, releasing the brakes to unlock the wheels could be the difference between hitting or missing a trespasser, a difficult one to justify when on trial.
     
  12. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    A difficult situation which thankfully I’ve never faced and never will but a locomotive with wheels locked up is just sliding with very little braking effect. It’s why on the advanced road driving test they teach you to pump the brakes as soon as they lock up. Easy to say but in the heat of the moment very difficult to override the natural reaction to just brake as hard as you can. In theory to pull up in the least distance requires a braking force just short of locking up the wheels
     
  13. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    I don’t think the emergency brake on the railway works quite like that John. It’s pretty much all or nothing.
     
  14. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    I know the modern brake doesn’t, it gags an antilock device but that’s not quite the same on a Black 5
     
  15. jonathonag

    jonathonag Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my point John. The time leading up to the climax of the incident will be mere seconds, so the reaction in braking is near instantaneous to sighting the issue. To take the time finding the sweet spot to avoid wheel lock up/wheel slide would likely negate any time saving you may find being made by keeping the wheels rotating. The time after the climax, passing the trespassers in these scenarios, is then whatever time it takes for you to deal with the safety critical aspect of the situation (e.g GDMR red button to signaller, emergency call, stop all traffic and are any emergency services required). The emergency brake is called just that, use in emergency, so a driver can begin the emergency process. Depending on traction, the emergency brake can also be automatically locked in once engaged until the train has stopped or x amount of seconds has elapsed.

    I'm not passed out for steam on the mainline, so will need to consult with friends who are for clarification, but we as MU drivers are not informed to do it any differently. Brake to emergency, make call and set DRA. Depending on the success of point 2, further safety critical requirements such as protection may need to be carried out.

    I think many underestimate just what toll even a near miss incident can have on footplate crew. Everything is recorded on OTMR and cctv to back up you professionalism, and while you know that, you find doubt creeps in to your mind the second the adrenaline wears off. Did I see them as soon as I could be expected to? Did I make the Emergency Call correctly? Did I make the rest of the journey as professionally as I could?

    You go home with the thought in your head "I nearly killed a person today".
     
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  16. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    I have a great empathy with what you say. Many years ago I knew an LT Underground driver, a fellow volunteer on a heritage railway. He had his first ‘one under’, a suicide at Holborn Station. He was off work for a month and after that got flashbacks when running into stations. Eventually he left LT and I can’t remember what he did after that. I assume that the sort of support available to someone in that situation would be a lot better now than it was in the late 60s.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    On a train (as opposed to a light engine) much of the braking force is from the carriages - it is not just the loco alone. The brake is also relatively slow to react along the length of the train. If you knew the loco had locked wheels and you were in a calm situation I'm sure you could try to modulate the braking. But in an emergency, it probably makes less difference than it would with a light engine provided you haven't also locked up the carriage brakes as well. My sympathies would be with the crew and not trying to micro-analyse whether their stopping distance could have been a few feet shorter given absolutely perfect modulation of the brake. Going out and performing an emergency stop during the Newark brake trials is not the same as doing an emergency stop when you spot a person or obstruction immediately ahead.

    Tom
     
  18. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    Agree 100% with that, I was talking theoretically, in an emergency situation the brain goes into auto mode and there isn’t the time to analyse the optimum response to the situation.
     
  19. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture

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    I'm not sure that I did directly blame Drakeford for the tresspass.
     
  20. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    You are absolutely right about what happens and how you react in an emergency.

    When I was on the buses we had a small number of Bristols that were air braked and they needed a far more sensitive foot for stopping, especially with a full load and people standing. One day I was crawling through traffic in Shanklin when the car ahead decided to stop dead at a crossing. At that precise moment I had been glancing at the mirror and came back to see the rear of a car rather too close. Instinct took over from normal behaviour and we pulled up sharpish. I heard the thump above me. At the next stop I discovered that my conductor had been taking fares at the time and standing facing the direction of travel - something that she knew she shouldn't do but I discovered later that my driving habits had sadly lulled her into a false sense of security. Ticket machines coming into contact with thighs can create quite a painful injury, it transpired. I was devastated.

    As for trespassers and locked brakes, I wouldn't be surprised if we learned in due course that these were two unconnected events but one thing is for certain, you don't want either.
     

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