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Locomotives that should have been preserved, but weren’t.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 6220Coronation, Dec 15, 2021.

  1. bluetrain

    bluetrain Member

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    The basic problem was that the natural position for a 4-6-0 rear axle was in the middle of the firebox, where it could get in the way of the ashpan and air flow.

    Consider the attached diagram from Dr Tuplin, showing some NER firebox layouts. On the S-class 4-6-0 (LNER B13), the ashpan is close to the rear half of the grate. On a long journey, this area was prone to get clogged with ash and lose its airflow, thus inhibiting steaming and power generation. The outcome was that the NER entrusted long-distance expresses to its Atlantics and 4-4-0s, with the 4-6-0s relegated to shorter distance mixed-traffic work.

    https://www.lner.info/locos/B/b13.php

    Similar story on the GCR, where Robinson's Atlantics and Director-class 4-4-0s outperformed the various 4-6-0 classes on long-distance expresses, again because the 4-6-0s had similar firebox issues to those seen on the NER.

    Possible solutions are:
    (1) Bend the ashpan back down behind the rear axle and ensure adequate air supply to the rear of the grate - done by Churchward and later seen on SR, LMS & BR Standard 4-6-0s.
    (2) Move the rear axle further back under the cab - seen most obviously on Highland Jones Goods and Castle Class and on some British Colonial designs, but also on most German 4-6-0s and on LNER B17 & B1(Thompson).
    (3) Avoid the 4-6-0 and use the 2-6-2 instead.

    I would really like to have seen examples of the GCR & NER Atlantic classes preserved.
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. Spinner

    Spinner Member

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    You might need to extend your net a little further...

    In NSW, there's three locomotives that are close to typical of British practice in the 1850s and 1860s.

    No 1. A McConnell 0-4-2 built by Robert Stephenson & Co, No 958 of 1854. In service early on 1855, withdrawn during 1877. http://www.australiansteam.com/1.htm

    No 18. A Stephenson Long Boiler 0-6-0 built by Robert Stephenson & Co, No 1542 of 1862. In service during 1866, sold out of Government service in 1891, finally withdrawn during 1962. http://www.australiansteam.com/18.htm

    No 20N (after 1889 No 403). An 0-6-0ST built by Kitson & Company in Leeds, No 1620 of 1870. In service during 1870, sold out of Government service in 1891, finally withdrawn during 1967. http://www.australiansteam.com/20N.htm

    Each of these are in close to original condition.

    There is also a 'ringer.' No 78. An 0-4-2 based on the 1 Class. built by Eveleigh Workshops from imported parts during 1877. Sold out of Government service in 1896, returned to Government ownership in 1917, withdrawn immediately and then place on a plinth at Enfield Locomotive Depot circa 1927. http://www.australiansteam.com/78.htm

    I don't mean to encourage a huge list of others from outside the UK with these four locomotives, just to show that there are some others out there, on Standard gauge.
     
  3. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    Some very fine, and long-lived, machinery there!

    Richard.
     
  4. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    How much worse is that than the 1840s or 1870s?
     
  5. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    Loads of 1870s, how many terriers are there ;)
     
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  6. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    There are 10 preserved (including 1 in Canada) and 2022 will be their 150th Anniversary of build; is someone organising a celebratory event ??
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    When I looked at the stats ages ago, (and restricting things to just the UK, and just standard gauge) I listed four from the 1840s, which I tend to think of as the "dark ages" as well: 'Columbine', 'Copperknob', 'Cornwall' and 'Derwent' - though relative to the 1850s locos, they are probably more representative of their era.

    By contrast, from the 1870s, I listed 34 survivors. Apart from the previously mentioned Terriers, you have the Stirling Single GNR No. 1; LNWR No. 790 'Hardwicke', two LSWR Beattie Well Tanks (much rebuilt, but still showing their ancestry); NER 1275 0-6-0 and 901 class 2-4-0; GER Coffeepot No. 229; and MR 1F No. 1708 from the mainline companies, and quite a selection of industrials.

    Tom
     
  8. Cosmo Bonsor

    Cosmo Bonsor Member

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    In response to an earlier question about stays via LSWR boilers, I'm not qualified to say which is the best type or method. There people more knowledgeable here than me. I just hit the things with hammers!
    I do think that working backwards from BR Standards, via Stanier to Churchward is the best indication.
    That is direct steel crown stays, a mixture of steel, copper or monel elsewhere, especially in the breaking zones. Sling stays too in the areas where the is a need for flexibility.
    I'm surprised flexible stays weren't used more. I'm thinking of the ones round Bulleid thermic syphons. I wonder if cost was a factor. German locos are full of the things with all steel, welded boxes.
    Another question I have pondered over is the use of the Easleigh crown stays with Mr D's cross tube fireboxes. This must have made the sides of the inner box very rigid, and flexibility was needed somewhere, so the only place left to put it is in the crown sheet.
    Interesting things, boilers. The ones on the really old stuff especially.
     
  9. RabthreeL

    RabthreeL New Member

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    Monel stays are used as an alternative/replacement for steel stays because the latter suffer from corrosion at any junction with copper. Steel stays also burn much more easily, steel being an inferior conductor of heat. BR Standards had Monel stays fitted from new. Monel stays are much more expensive than steel stays; the material for those in 6106 cost £2k in the 80s. Once fitted though, Monel stays should last the life of the boiler. Steel stays can only be used up to a certain size (5/8"?). Beyond that copper has to be used because of the tendency of steel to burn.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Of the SR survivors, the following are unique examples of their class:

    SECR:
    Stirling O1
    Wainwright D
    Wainwright C
    Wainwright H

    LBSCR
    Stroudley E1
    Stroudley Gladstone
    Billinton E4

    LSWR
    Adams 0415
    Adams T3
    Adams O2
    Drummond T9

    SR
    Maunsell Q
    Maunsell N
    Maunsell Lord Nelson
    Maunsell King Arthur
    Bulleid Q1

    I think there are 86 preserved ex-SR locos (ignoring Invicta and Beachy Head, but including BR-built Bulleid Pacifics), so that makes 16/86 = 19% unique survivors.

    At a punt (I haven't counted) I'd suspect the LNER survivors have the highest percentage of unique locos, given a diverse range of classes, but no equivalent of Black 5s / Halls / Bulleid pacifics that survived into preservation in large numbers.

    Tom
     
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  11. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member

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    LMS unique survivors(excluding some very early types and new builds)

    LNWR
    0-4-0ST
    Hardwick
    Super D
    Coal tank
    NLR 0-6-0T

    Midland
    Compound
    Kirtley 2-4-0
    Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
    LTSR 4-4-2T
    4-2-2 673

    LYR
    Barton Wright 0-6-0
    Aspinall 0-6-0
    0-6-0ST
    2-4-2T

    Caledonian
    4-2-2 123
    0-4-4T
    0-6-0 828

    GSWR
    0-6-0T

    Highland
    Jones Goods

    North Stafford
    0-6-2T

    LMS
    Ivatt class 4
    Stanier mogul
    Stanier 3 cyl 2-6-4T

    If I've missed anything, let me know!
     
  12. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member

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    For the LNER, it's easier to list classes which aren't unique survivors, ie, more than one preserved. Off the top of my head:

    A4
    J94
    B1
    ROD 2-8-0 (63601 + 3 in Australia)
     
  13. bluetrain

    bluetrain Member

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    Plus two Y7 ? Very small so easy to miss!

    https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y7.php
     
  14. Cosmo Bonsor

    Cosmo Bonsor Member

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    I knew the historians would chime in!
    Thanks.
    My last thoughts on stays are that I got a very nice book 1/2 price in the sales called Railways, A History In Drawings.
    There are lots of cross sections of engines and the variation of design, even from the same CME is very interesting.
    There is one of the I3 to bring things vaguely back OT. There are similarities with the E4, hornguide castings for example. There should have been an I3 IMHO .
    Finally, my railway was replacing stays In the 70s, I think and wanted some material. The conversation went something like, ' Hello, we'd like to buy some monel.' 'Ah, you've got a steam engine, haven't you?'
     
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  15. Loco3801

    Loco3801 New Member

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    You could be really pedantic with that list and remove the ROD - 63601 was an 8K/O4, the three out here are genuine RODs.
     
  16. Loco3801

    Loco3801 New Member

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    Am I correct in saying that I have read that 18 is the oldest extant Long Boiler design in the world? I'm sure I've seen that claim.
     
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  17. Masterbrew

    Masterbrew New Member

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    One consideration is classes of locomotives that lasted into the final couple of years of steam but none were preserved. I was wondering what the last non-preserved class in service was. I know that the last Standard Class 3 2-6-0 was withdrawn at the end of Southern steam in July 1967 but I believe that some ex-LNER 0-6-0s remained in use until that autumn. So which classes had representatives in traffic in 1966 but are now extinct?
     
  18. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Ditto the tank version. Of course, courtesy of years of phenomenal effort by the folks at 82025.org.uk we've the return from undeserved oblivion of the 2-6-2T to look forward to. When I apply the same question to Irish steam, it's difficult to know whether to be angry or despondent. Roll on the NCC W Class Mogul!
     
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  19. Robin

    Robin Well-Known Member Friend

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    The last two BR Standard Class 3 2-6-2Ts 82019/29 were not withdrawn until 9 July 1967. Hopefully 82045 will fill the gap before too long.
     
  20. bluetrain

    bluetrain Member

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    Four classes of LNER 0-6-0 were still at work in 1966/7. One each of J27 & J36 survive in preservation, but J37 & J38 failed to make it.

    https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j_b.php
     

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