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Locomotive Superintendents

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Dunfanaghy Road, Feb 25, 2021.

  1. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Presumably. It depends on how well the patent has been written as to whether a variation on the concept can be used without paying a fee. The railways did pay patent fees if they needed to, but in general it seems that if they could avoid buying a license by designing round the patent then they did. Of course it probably also depended on how much the patentee wanted!
     
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  2. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

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    I had another go at scanning the biography of William Adams from 'The Locomotive' (15th February, 1939). (Thanks to @Big Al for the advice.)
    Hope it is of interest.
    Pat
     

    Attached Files:

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  3. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Just picking up on this point about Sentinels from earlier this month: one of a similar type survives in Argentina. It was built for the British-owned FC Midland: http://vapor-steam.blogspot.com/2019/04/vapor-santa-romana.html
     
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  4. Eightpot

    Eightpot Well-Known Member Friend

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    Appears to still have its 6-cylinder engines but has lost its original bogies being replaced with what looks more like freight wagon ones substituted.
     
  5. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

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    Talking to one of the gang on 499 yesterday. The name of Mr Stroudley came up. My question concerns pronouncing his name: is it 'Strowdley' or 'Stroodley'. Worth getting right, in view of his influence on the Drummond brothers (and, I imagine, on Mr. Urie, albeit at one remove).
    Pat
     
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  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I've never heard anyone say other than "Strowdley"; nor seen it noted in any reference as being a name to take care over.

    One that most people do get wrong these days is Richard Maunsell - should be pronounced "Mansell", but most people say "Mornsle". (Interestingly, the SER previously - and briefly - had a Locomotive, Carriage and Wagon Superintendent who was genuinely Richard Mansell - he of the Mansell wooden-centred wheels. He was the C&W Superintendent but briefly held the reins for locomotive affairs in the interregnum between the departure of Cudworth and the arrival of Stirling. Mostly notable in locomotive affairs for building a couple of Cudworth standard goods 0-6-0s with his eponymous wooden-centred driving wheels).

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  7. Bikermike

    Bikermike Member

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    I did not know about Mansel (of the wheels). I assumed it was Maunsel that did them...
    In the same way as there are Adams locos with (other) Adams bogies, are there Maunsell vehicles with Mansel wheels?
     
  8. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Tell you what @Bikermike, it's a rare day I don't come off this forum having learned something new. At my age, that's rather refreshing. Come to think of it, it's also a pretty rare month when Tom isn't responsible for at least one of those days. As soon as I can get my hands on a small golden statue of Harry Wainwright to go between the incense burners, Buddha's going to be relegated from the lounge. ;)
     
  9. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

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    Thanks, Tom.
    Pat
     
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  10. bluetrain

    bluetrain Member

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    The Adams story is even more complex than that. According to Ahrons, William Adams (NLR/GER/LSWR loco superintendent) patented his bogie design in 1865, and it came to be widely used. But in 1863, William Bridges Adams had devised his radial truck design, which also came to be widely used, although further developed by others notably Francis Webb.

    The LSWR 4-4-2Ts, along with some other loco types, appear to have had a W Adams bogie at one end and a WB Adams radial truck at the other end.
     
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  11. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

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    I found this in the 'London Gazette' in respect of William Adams, dated June 6th, 1865 . Doubtless there are more matches to find. As to William Bridges Adams, I have found several LG entries; a quick look suggests a man who had an inventive mind, but a poor head for finance (I may be wrong).
    404. And William Adams, Locomotive Engineer,
    of 21, Carlisle-terrace, Bow, Middlesex, has
    given the like notice in respect of the invention
    of " improvements in bogie trucks used for
    supporting railway locomotive engines, car-
    riages, and waggons!"
    As set forth in his petition, recorded in the said
    office on the 13th day of February,'1865.

    Pat
     
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm tempted to say not, at least on the SECR / SR, since by time Maunsell became CME, Mansell wheels were on the way out for new construction, though those in use carried on for decades more in some cases - the Bluebell has two carriages in its operational fleet still using the wheels, though for how much longer is difficult to know. If there was anything at all, maybe a prize cattle wagon or something obscure like that.

    Whether in his earlier career he was responsible for building anything in Ireland with Mansell wheels I don't know.

    This area of paving at Edge Hill Station is made using the wooden blocks from old Mansell wheels, which apparently was a common use, particularly in areas where it was desirable to keep the noise from horses and carts to a minimum.

    [​IMG]

    (Not my photo - source: https://twitter.com/morris_oxford/status/1168248225767317505)

    Tom
     
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  13. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Is it time for me to share this again? This was my attempt to explain to myself the various "schools" of design (e.g. Crewe, Derby, Swindon, Stroudley, Horwich, etc.) and how people moved between companies taking their preferences with them and absorbing new influences.
    You won't be able to read it as it won't let me attach a high enough resolution. And lots of my colour coding is debatable. But I think it's illustrative of how ideas, influences, etc, spread.
    It's easy to forget otherwise that Gresley trained at Horwich, or how influential Stroudley was, or how a concatenation of ex-NSR men was key to the late LMS utility locos.[​IMG]
     
  14. Bluenosejohn

    Bluenosejohn New Member

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    Sir Nigel Gresley started his apprenticeship at Crewe under Frank Webb before finishing as a pupil of John Aspinall at Horwich.

    Another interesting name who spent time at Crewe before coming becoming famous in another field was Charles Stewart Rolls.

    Tom Coleman started at Kerr, Stuart & Co before moving to the Stoke works of the North Staffordshire Railway. Kerr, Stuart & Co were to produce a more famous designer who fortunately for the country excelled in another field of engineering, one Reginald Joseph Mitchell.
     
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  15. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    And to add a bit more, John Aspinall had trained at Crewe under the same Frank Webb, as had H.A. Ivatt.
     
  16. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    The black and grey colour schemes are supposed to show that Crewe/Webb, Horwich/Aspinall lineage, the third corner of which was Inchicore under McDonnell (Aspinall, Ivatt and Maunsell all trained/served there).
     
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  17. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    @Jimc has kindly stuck the full resolution version on his website so people can see it if interested: https://www.devboats.co.uk/gwdrawings/ashimmin/cmes.jpg

    This was just an idle whimsy really. As I said above, I was trying to trace the various "schools" of design and the influence of where people trained (e.g. Crewe, Derby, Swindon, Horwich, etc.) and who trained them (e.g. Stroudley, Drummond, Churchward, Gresley, Johnson, etc.).
    It's often forgotten how people moved between companies taking their learning and practice with them and absorbing new influences.
    Lots of my colour coding is slightly arbitrary and very debatable: it's not intended to suggest definitive "schools" with members, but to trace the movement of people associated with one another by training and working together. I think it's illustrative of how ideas, influences, etc, spread.
    Some things which I think it illustrates nicely:
    - the long stability of practice at Swindon, going back to Gooch, which was a big factor in the relative strength of the GWR in engineering matters
    - the lasting influence of Stroudley/Drummond in Scotland
    - the well-known reach of Derby ideas elsewhere through e.g. Clayton moving to Ashford, etc.
    - the gigantic reach of Crewe in the form of those who trained there in the Webb years, including the "second generation" influences via e.g. the Wordsells.
    - the triangle formed by those who trained at Crewe, Inchicore and Horwich, including such giants as Aspinall, H Ivatt, Gresley, Maunsell, etc. and many others too (Fowler,
    - the surprising influence of the ex-Knotty men (Coleman, G. Ivatt, Owens) on late LMS utility locos, and hence on the BR standards (more influential, I think personally, than Crewe via Riddles or Horwich via Cox, although both of those threads can be seen in the standards too).

    It also offers some explanation of otherwise surprising contrasts. E.g. Peter Drummond at Lochgorm and Dugald Drummond at Nine Elms both took over from men who'd designed good outside cylinder locos, and imposed a very distinct school of design based on inside cylinders, etc. But Jones, notwithstanding the Crewe-type style of his early locos, was heavily influenced by Stroudley, as were the Drummond's. So despite the superficialities, perhaps there was less of a mismatch than with Adams/D Drummond - Adams being quite unique and standing apart in many ways (although Urie - whod' come from St Rollox with Drummond - picked up some Adams threads in his own designs).
    Similarly the chaos of late GSWR loco matters becomes evident: P Drummond and Manson may both have been "Scottish school" designers of inside cylinder locos with steam reversers but they had quite different influences.
    It may also explain why the LNER amalgamation (NER, GNR linked by threads going back to 19th century Crewe) was more amicable in motive power terms than the LMS one (at least three entirely distinct design traditions).

    Then it's fascinating to see the engineers who arrived seemingly with little baggage, instead picking up the strong design traditions where they arrived (Holden coming from Swindon to Stratford, everyone arriving at St Rollox) and those who stamped their own individual or "home works" traditions on the new line (Drummonds and Stirlings wherever they went, Adams, Manson).

    All just a bit of fun, but hopefully interesting!

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

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    A nice piece of work. Thanks. It's a shame about the resolution, but there you go. [Edited: your latest post 'crossed' mine.]
    I see that William Beattie gets a mention. One day I'll be told how on earth he got the job, until then I'll just have to speculate (to myself).
    Given what has recently been published concerning the output of Nine Elms Works and the role Beyer, Peacock played in supplying it, I think I can see a possible cause of the fiasco of WGB's new build (the Sharps Express) and, subsequently, the very BP look of the first Adams classes; that Nine Elms Drawing Office had little or no design experience. (I imagine that Mr. Adams had to do some hiring-in to get things ship-shape.)
    Pat
     
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  19. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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  20. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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