If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Locomotive Performance and Tractive Effort Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by MellishR, Nov 26, 2022.

  1. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    190
    Did I say that? The photo is from Swindon! It would seem at least that the LNER had a few more things to learn from Churchward about standardisation!
     
  2. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,990
    Likes Received:
    5,090
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I read somewhere that Swindon regarded the smokebox as another ring of the barrel. God knows why, but that might explain it.
     
  3. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    And yet, here is one at Doncaster:

    upload_2022-12-5_14-3-36.png

    Source: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-t...ce23aefb6e5060565d40ab3aceb7d838&searchtype=0
     
  4. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    190
    Yes, and as you have indicated, the odds are that the smokebox would have had to be removed anyway to fit on another locomotive with a different arrangement. Standardisation has so many advantages!
     
    S.A.C. Martin likes this.
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,180
    Likes Received:
    57,802
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Here’s one for @LMS2968 - Derby, 1926

    7DB884F7-34E4-434E-ACCD-BA782763CB20.jpeg

    Source: https://www.fineartstorehouse.com/h...opical-press-agency/boiler-shop-18361765.html

    The original discussion was about blast pipes; and even if you remove boiler and smokebox together, the blast pipe stays behind.

    I seem to recall there is various discussion in Holcroft in which poor steaming was investigated and the cause coming down to a misalignment of blast pipe and chimney, which could happen if the boiler is removed and then replaced an inch or two out.

    Tom
     
    Bluenosejohn likes this.
  6. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,623
    Likes Received:
    1,454
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    A whole Inch ? or two ? gulp.
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,180
    Likes Received:
    57,802
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Possibly less, I’m away from the reference. But I recall it came up several times in Holcroft in relation to locos that steamed poorly, especially if one loco from a class was worse than the others.

    Tom
     
  8. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,990
    Likes Received:
    5,090
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Which raises a point: the smokebox is bolted rigidly to the saddle and the boiler fitted to the rear of the smokebox while the firebox end is free to slide longitudinally, so if the smokebox is returned to the same engine, it all has to line up, irrespective of what boiler is fitted.
     
  9. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,623
    Likes Received:
    1,454
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Thanks Tom, suppose with the fit being slightly out the wrong way on all the possible interfaces: boiler to support, boiler to smokebox, smokebox to chimney, Blastpipe to cylinder block (esp if not true/ vertical), cylinder block to chassis. then an inch is possible...
     
  10. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    3,816
    Likes Received:
    951
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That is probably the reason why loco overhauls took a lot longer at Swindon compared with other loco works.
     
  11. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    190
    Why? Because they didn't remove the smokebox, unless it was necessary? That statement doesn't make much sense. Of course it could have taken longer for other reasons. How many miles did a GWR loco run before overhaul, compared to other companies?
     
  12. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    3,816
    Likes Received:
    951
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Crewe, Derby etc would have had an overhauled spare boiler to use, Swindon would have to overhaul the boiler and re-use it. If you look at overhaul dates on loco record cards, this is quite obvious. At Crewe it took longer to repaint the loco than to overhaul it.
     
  13. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    190
    You are implying that the same boiler would have to go back on the same locomotive? With standardisation, a boiler could go back on any member of the same class, or even a different class. So according to you, Swindon didn't have any spare boilers? I'm not sure you know what you're talking about! Even the 47xx had one spare boiler (which required careful planning).
     
  14. Robin

    Robin Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,399
    Likes Received:
    1,750
    Location:
    Stourbridge
    As an example, 4150's overhaul record at Swindon shows it had 5 different boilers during its working life. The current boiler, 5895, began life on a different 5101 class but was also used on three other 6100 class locos.
    4150 Record card.jpg

    Boiler 5895 history.jpg
     
  15. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    308
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I guess it's also important to consider that the fit of the smokebox to the saddle should be as good as possible to avoid any air leaks that could reduce the smokebox vacuum.
     
  16. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    308
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Did the differences of the four types relate to the draughting, or were they just differences in the way they were fitted to the locomotive?
     
  17. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Draughting, size of blastpipe nozzles and yes, some slight differences in fitting (bearing in mind you have some classes with seriously less space in which to fit the equipment than others). All notionally the same thing, all in reality slightly differing variations.
     
    Allegheny likes this.
  18. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    190
    Until fairly recently I always thought that the 61xx boilers were different because of the higher pressure - nickel steel I read somewhere. But it appears that they were the same as those fitted to the 41s and 51's, which does beg the question why these didn't operate at 225psig. Horses for courses, I suppose.
     
  19. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    308
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    If there is any documentation relating to how the various dimensions of the components of the Kylchap affect the draughting, there would be a lot of interest from enthusiasts. Porta produced a detailled paper explaining how to design a Lempor, but there is precious little information available relating to the Kylchap.
     
  20. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,623
    Likes Received:
    1,454
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Probably why there is still the occasional Lempor, not Kyllchap , retrofit or new build.
     

Share This Page