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Loco 76017

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by johnofwessex, Nov 15, 2022.

  1. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Less the ownership, more the transfer. Simple clear briefings that locomotive x’s owners have decided to transfer it elsewhere and we wish them well type stuff.


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  2. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    in a very incestuous preservation scene do not under estimate the grapevine to be bang on the money . This is not foaming and just because it isn't officially announced (and quite possibly never will) doesn't make what has been shared here any less true

    What I find sad is another part of the old MHR is no more . There was something very exciting about the line with 34016, 31874, 31806, 31625, 76017 along with 30120, 34105 as part of the running fleet and all in BR livery alongside Southern region green coaches

    I know things change but I miss that old MHR
     
  3. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Sadly things will never be in balance given the twin evils of preservation - Ego and Politics - which have existed since Day 1 and will never be removed from the arena. This has cost more locomotive difficulties than any other factor and prevented many good schemes from coming to fruition.
     
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  4. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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  5. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Sadly the bulk of those locos, except 120, were either owned by one man, or associates of that man, and others such as the 3f, and 4f, were thrown off, as were many persons because they fell out with the Junta, in charge at the time, No railway can allow itself to be held to the whims of someone who can if they so wished to stop the railway because they hold all the cards.
     
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  6. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    "Politics" is generally better than the alternative.
    It's not great that people/organisations fall out, but they do. Unless you nationalise the lot, how do you make people do things with their property that they don't want to do? Your "good scheme" may be absolutely anathema to someone else.
     
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  7. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Those issues also happen in nationalised organisations, just dressed differently.

    What @Fred Kerr describes as "politics" I see as an expression of ego, as there is a significant difference between the (small p) political process of reconciling and aligning different priorities, with the more destructive politics that arise when the debate also involves questions of status for the individuals involved.
     
  8. Phil K

    Phil K Member

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    One thing I've wondered since this situation has come to mind is the meaning of the 'Excalibur Express' headboard the loco wore on the move to the Bluebell? Anythging to do with removing the sword from the stone?
     
  9. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    ex Brian Pickett Wessex railtours headboard . Given that I think JB had a stake possibly a reference . Maybe with 34016 and possibly 76017 coming back a hint to the future ...
     
  10. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    ultimately though the railway was held to ransom by the then management and not the person whose heart was in the MHR . Good governance and agreements that protected both parties could perhaps have charted a different route
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2022
  11. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    All very tricky. Were it not for a countable number of people many railways and locomotives might not be around today. But a subset of these folk seem capable of causing grief for reasons we need not unpick.

    A close fireman friend of mine was driven away from the MHR by the regime at the time and has not returned. He is on another heritage line. Does it matter? Probably not but it illustrates that one should never take loyalty for granted.
     
  12. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    It's probably inevitable that not all the people with the vision, passion and drive that was needed to create the heritage railway movement out of nothing would be the best players in the very different environment required to keep the lines running indefinitely.
    It may not be wise for city states
    To foster a lion cub within their gates
    But if they do they may find it pays
    To tolerate their little ways
     
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  13. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The problem arises, as hinted at by @Sidmouth above, when the long term needs of the locomotive (e.g. to be protected by a Trust) conflicts with the owner's presumed status as locomotive owner who - for reasons of ego / status - refuses to accept or acknowledge the need for long term solutions. I believe that at least one main line locomotive has suffered much because of this and there may be others whose existence has been affected by such considerations especially when the cost of main line running then creates a rift between those willing to accept the cost of "going main line" and those happy to see it operate for lower cost on heritage lines only.
     
  14. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    Heritage railways are strange organisations. Staffed by volunteers (including the managers) who may have strong views, personal agendas and preferences, busy lives and other paid jobs.

    Their major assets (locos) are often owned by external individuals or groups who can decide what to do (or not to do) with them at any moment.

    The management have a careful juggling act to keep everyone and everything together.

    It's very easy to sit outside and tell them what they should do. It's a different matter to actually put yourself forward to be in those positions and actually manage it on a weekly basis.
     
  15. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    Apart from the volunteer part I am not really sure that Heritage Lines are different to many companies in the "normal world".
    I dealt with many suppliers whose organisations were run by people with strong views, personal agendas and preferences. Often these appeared to make at times little commercial sense. Some of these also had personal apathy to others within the industry, and the hatred for each other at times was real.
    I do agree though that many of the assets they need are owned by others who may also display some of all of these traits, which is far less common, but not unheard of in normal commercial industry.
    Also in the past maybe organisations and individuals were too trusting and did not bother to agree things on a contractual basis. Which may fine fine when things are going well, but not so when disagreements lead to disputes happening.
     
  16. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    And I see the same in the voluntary organisations I am connected with.


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  17. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Is that literally true? Is there really no form of contract between the owner and the railway which specifies the agreement including notice periods, the basis of the storage v usage equation etc? Apologies for my ignorance, I should have thought writing it all down would be a good idea from the point of view of both landlord and tenant and the support groups.
     
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  18. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Well in the case of the MHR, several locos were on a 15 year hire agreement which meant the owner couldn’t do what he wanted on a whim.
     
  19. brennan

    brennan Member

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    There are no standard forms of contract as are found , for example, in the construction industry. The HRA offers one for the hire of locos but I'm not aware that they have a template for a long term agreement. This results in loco owners and the user railway producing their own. This type of arrangement is what the lawyers make a lot of money from in the outside world as what one party understood to be the agreement is not always shared by the other. Contract disputes end up with arbitration (which the HRA also offers) or in court, which is rather more expensive. This I vaguely remember is what happened at the Mid Hants a long time ago. I believe Peak Rail also had a run in with a loco owner a few years ago that dented their profit line. It often comes down to how hard one side is prepared to fight their corner. There are many more disputes involving the long term hire and use of steam locos than ever appear on this website. Owning a steam loco is rather like owning a boat. " There are only two good days , one when you buy it and one when you sell it!".
     
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  20. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    Would an HRA suite of model long term agreement rolling stock contracts even be possible, or are there too many variables?
     

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