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LMS Patriot Project Updates

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gav106, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

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    Fundamental flaws? Or floors?

    The key fundamental flaw in the argument you are making, is that it doesn't progress the project to completion.

    Clearly if flaws are found and rectified by a competent team, as appears to now be the case, then it stands to reason the machine will absolutely work as intended. Much in the same way as A3's. big Lizzies or Black 5's.

    One other issue with your argument is this.

    You remained a donor whilst you didn't know of non-conformant engineering, but now that the truth and transparency are on offer, you step back?

    Its interesting that you take that position yet openly cite confidence of stakeholders. This engineer right here knows what constitutes the loss of my confidence, and that's non-conformant engineering being buried to please project managers.

    I can sympathise with the loss of money, that is regrettable and would be deeply unpalatable for any donor. In some aspects there may be recourse, but if not, we just have to make a choice to accept these things and keep going, or not, as the case may be.
     
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  2. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    Excellent, I’m glad for the project that you will continue to support it. But I stand by my language, and the way that I used it to describe the progressive development of bad news.

    I disagreed with one particular poster for his reaction to the latest news, and explained why - from the standpoint of a neutral. I’m delighted to hear that the reporting is transparent (something I’ve never doubted), and look forward to seeing that maintained. And, if they’re fundraising at an event I’m at, I may even drop something in the tin.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  3. Davo

    Davo Member

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    Would the metal tyre be reusable off the old driving wheel or can the tyre be expanded under heat to be slid off the old wheel or would the Gibson ring stop that? If not failing that could the old driver wheel be cut in half to remove the tyre? this is a disappointment to hear this that one wheel pan has found to be cracked beyond repair to fillet weld up I just hope like alot of other donors like myself over nearly 4 years been honest has put £7000+ towards the L.M.S. Pat project mainly to the boiler and tender and a bit toward the 5551 club, and just hope it's only the 1 wheel which wouldn't press off the rear axle and not saying no more until the other 5 wheels are tested to see if it was when the the wheels were cast for air pockets or airline cracks from Cooling down from the casting process. But whichever outcome it wont stop me from donating to the the L.M.S. Pat project cos they have overcome numerous problems before whilst building the Patriot loco, and basically just to cap my statement off engineering projects on this scale is about trial and error and learning curbs even if 5551 takes 3 years to build ile back the L.M.S. Pat project wi monthly donations.
    Davo 56F
     
  4. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Member

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    Hi, thanks for the grammar Nazi reply. Unfortunately the auto correct popped that one through. Once I noted your acerbic retort I didn't continue reading whatever you wrote any further
     
  5. Bikermike

    Bikermike Member

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    How much more is there that was built under the old order that hasn't been checked to the new standard?

    I suspect the dash to complete it for the 100th anniversary of WW1 is coming home to roost. IIRC, the clan project got over having to scrap their frames, so things can be overcome.
     
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  6. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Nothing acerbic about it that I can see; just a point of view expressed. That it doesn't agree with yours is no reason to ignore it.
     
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  7. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    The litany of problems throughout this saga reads like a gypsy's warning. The example of 72010 crossed my mind too and boy, have it's current team turned that one around.

    Coincidentally, I happened to be reading an article on the FR Heritage website, concerning the arrival of Linda from Penrhyn just last night, which mentioned problems experienced rushing Prince back into service, back in 1962. In model engineering circles, purchasing "part built" locomotives is a proverbially fraught gamble.

    It certainly appears components inherited from the original team will need levels of inspection it's clearly no longer safe to assume they received first time around, for the loco to be successfully completed, let alone have a snowball in hell's chance of mainline certification.

    On the 'big plus' side, the current team's professionalism, their ability to identify inherited problems, straightforward appraisal and evident willingness to deal openly and honestly with regulatory bodies and their support base bodes very well indeed for a successful conclusion to this project.

    Hengist
    proves such a turnabout is possible and I've no doubt those now at the helm will achieve the same happy result. I wish all those involved well and hope there'll be no more unwelcome "surprises" on the road to seeing a Patriot in steam once more.
     
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  8. Bikermike

    Bikermike Member

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    @30854 - your sig is more than usually on-point on this one.
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Maybe I missed it, but lots of people (not just @30854) seem to be talking about an organisational change in the Patriot group. What changed, and when?

    Tom
     
  10. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I must admit that crossed my mind as well, especially pertinent as IIRC senior people in the Patriot project also held senior roles in certain other new build projects?
     
  11. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Just to clarify, I've been going on my reading of what's been posted on this thread. It's entirely possible I've got my wires crossed, somewhere along the way and do please note that I've only ever claimed papal levels of infallibility on purely subjective matters.
     
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  12. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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  13. Bikermike

    Bikermike Member

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    posr #1483 above is the most recent I can see mentioning it
     
  14. std tank

    std tank Member

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    I seem to recall that two people resigned. One was the Chairman/fundraiser and the other was one of the engineering team.
     
  15. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

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  16. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The trouble is that what is acceptable and what isn't is often subjective. Yes, there are standards and there are drawings, although finding standards applicable to steam locomotive construction isn't exactly easy. It then comes down to this subjective assessment and what one person might accept is rejected by another. A simple example I can quote from experience is how much do you open a split pin when you have put it in and how long should the legs be ? I was once involved in an argument about quality of workmanship which literally came down to this. The person carrying out an inspection on behalf of the owner listed some 25 'faults', all of which were 'Split pin not opened out properly' or 'split pin too long/short.' After a lot of searching, I failed to find anything definitive on the subject, either in British standards or engineers reference books. Even though this was over twenty years ago, I'm still looking for an objective answer and, if anyone has it, I'd be pleased to see it. * Boiler work is another area which is very much subjective in terms of quality of workmanship.

    * I believe that BR required split pin legs on couplings to be bent right back although I've never seen the specific instruction.
     
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  17. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Some interesting considerations concerning "grandfather rights" in that lot. Going by what I've read concerning cylinder production (at the very least), I'm guessing that availability of suitable grades of ferrous metals is one of those things which is only going to become more of an issue, as the years roll by. Obtaining suitable materials in imperial measurements is unlikely to become easier (or cheaper) either.

    Do I correctly recall a slight issue involving split pins and a certain BoB loco, a few years ago?

    Question (and apologies if it's a daft one): In the event of a cylinder failure an otherwise operable loco, necessitating complete replacement (and assuming no suitable donor part from another machine), would one cylinder of dissimilar material (and presumably dissimilar construction) be vaguely desirable or permissable, or would you, of necessity, be looking at replacing both (or all) to retain uniformity?
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I don't think there is a problem with getting cylinders cast in material to the original specification. However, metallurgy has advanced and some cylinders are now being cast in spheroidal graphite iron which is more ductile and less likely to failure. It doesn't have the self lubricating properties of grey iron, though, and requires a liner fitting.
    Your reference to the Tangmere incident was, I believe, a case of not following the drawings but it was a mistake made by others. Easily done.
    upload_2021-5-4_14-34-46.png
     
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  19. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    As I recall, it was a cotter pin rather than a split pin, although doing the same job. Part of the problem was the pin's orientation, horizontal rather than vertical, and the split extended only as far as the point where the legs opened out, creating a stress raiser just where the stresses of opening the pin would be greatest.
     
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  20. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn’t that have been picked up on an FTR? Sorry, introducing thread drift here I know

    I like to bend split pins right back on themselves round the respective shaft. Provided they are thin and malleable enough. If thicker, a “decent” splitting would suffice. Almost totally subjective.

    Imperial grades/sizes will only go once American industry goes metric. Until then, we should be ok ish for various sizes. The entire global oil industry is basically imperial. It’s also common in Aerospace.
    Oh dear, that whole lot of off topic!
     

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