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LMS Patriot Project Updates

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gav106, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. Davo

    Davo Member

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    I know the wheelsets are pressed on pressed off axles by and held on the axles by keyways all i was trying to say is the keyways had to be rewelded cos of them been machined wrong the 1st time the driving wheels were pressed on the axles.
     
  2. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    No, the keys are to prevent the wheels turning on the axle, nothing more. They do not hold the wheel on to the axle. This is entirely the the force required to press them on to the axles. which is set to specified upper and lower limits.

    Read Marshall5's post again.
     
  3. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    So this is the time line that I can remember.

    Wheels cast. All OK.

    Went to be machined, cut in the wrong place. Welded up and OK.

    Went to SDR for assembly

    A few years pass

    Engineering director and chairman resigned

    New chairman and engineering structures change VAB due to W. J & partners unable to certify the loco for the mainline, only Ricardo able to do that.

    While going through the paperwork for every area of the loco the paperwork for the weld repair and the method statement missing.

    Test sample shows that the weld isn't good enough.

    Ways forward are to pull wheels off axles, remove previous weld, do to the correct method statement, and get all the paperwork, Ricardo happy with everything that Rileys has done.

    Lessons learnt for ourselves and anyone else who is doing this process. Make sure you have your paperwork organised and file every little bit. And don't try to cut corners.
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I might be missing something here - is the weld repair that is being discussed essentially something that has been used to build up a piece of metal so it can be re-machined? We're not talking use of welding as a means to join two things together?

    Tom
     
  5. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Correct
     
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  6. Sheff

    Sheff Well-Known Member

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    Of course they are :(
    I blame the gin.


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  7. huochemi

    huochemi Well-Known Member Friend

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    This issue raises some interesting points. The key of course also serves to locate the wheel at the correct angle on the axle during assembly (which determines the relative position of the crank pins on each side). When the problem occurred with the Britannias (and I assume the incidents reported related to the wheels shifting rotationally on the axle, not coming off the end, it is not entirely clear), according to Cox’ paper to the I Loco E in 1954, the solution included changing the seat to a parallel bore (from 1 in 500), having a solid rather than a hollow axle (I think), and also changing the design of key (which clearly in its original form/fit had not stopped the wheels shifting).

    If the key is intended to stop rotation (as noted, it is going to be there anyway to ensure correct assembly) if this was modelled using current available techniques, how would one model this function? In the previous era of pragmatic engineering, one could simply say let's change the seat and the key without any detailed analysis of their individual contribution to the design. I would be inclined to assume that the intention of the design would be to ensure the fit of wheel on axle was of itself sufficient to ensure the integrity, with the key’s function in discouraging rotation if all else fails being belt and braces.
     
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  8. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I'm not totally certain of this, but my understanding is that the wheels were pressed on to the axles without the key being in position, and it was fitted after assembly.

    A slight change of subject on to Class 08 diesel shunters. There was a problem of these going overspeed when going downhill, the drivers not realising that the speed limit applied irrespective of power being on or off, or even with the loco set to engine run only. This was because the traction motors were permanently engaged with the coupled wheels, so were driven at a proportional rpm to the speed over the ground. If the maximum rpm was exceeded, the armature would 'grow' due to excessive centrifugal force and impinge on the field windings, locking the motor and that wheelset. With four other wheels still trying to turn it, this resulted in the coupling rod eyes bursting or crank pins shearing. An attempt to overcome this was to simply remove the keys, so the cranks would turn on the seized axle. This didn't work as drivers then failed the locos due to the missing keys. This next problem was then overcome by fitting new keys, made of lead, which would shear in an overspeed situation.

    08 coupled wheels of course had the cranks external to the wheels, and it was this key which was the subject here, but I assume the principle of assembly was the same as for the wheel / axle situation. If so, it suggests that the keys could be fitted after assembly, and could even be removed from the assembly.

    Anyone else heard of this?
     
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  9. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Gav106 for your detailed reply, much appreciated. Great to see the progress despite so many set backs. "Well Done" to all concerned.
     
  10. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    From the head of our new engineering team.

    LMS Patriot Project
    Overview December 2020
    There have been many challenges to overcome during the year in order to make the best progress with the build as possible. The Covid-19 lockdowns and the curtailing of our ability to raise funds at the usual annual events are clearly the two main reasons for delay but, it has also been the restrictions in moving components and, not being able to meet with the team and our supporting contractors that also has had a marked impact on progress.
    We are fortunate in that our contractors have been very flexible and understanding of the situation and as a result progress has been made with all aspects of the build. PRCLT have carried out sterling work throughout the year and helped the project overcome some very challenging problems, not least, ending with the recovery of the main wheel weld issues, details of which will be documented in the engineering report. So, many thanks go to the PRCLT team who will be reconvening after a well-deserved festive break.
    A big thank you also goes to Leaky Finders and HBSS who worked closely with the project and despite a stop and start situation with various tasks throughout the year, have regardless, made good progress with the Tender Frame and the Boiler build.
    2020 also proved a difficult year as we continued to find major historical issues with the engine build however, the year ends on a positive note with the successful recovery of the failed welding on the main wheels and with a clear way forward and progress being made on recovering the bogie to the correct standard. From a project progress standpoint, it was good to hear, at our last engineering meeting, that the considered opinion was that we are not going to see any further major ‘historical’ surprises with the build.
    From a project management point of view, it has to be noted that the Engineering Team and the Project team as a whole have continued to work in a more cohesive manner. The monthly engineering meetings that focused on managing the budget and prioritising work proved critical and has had a very positive impact on the progress made in 2020 regardless of the difficulties encountered.
    The 18th December saw the work on The Unknown Warrior come to a stop for 2020. I look to starting 2021 with planning our build programme for the year with our team and primary contractors, and I also look forward to reporting more positive progress during the course of the year.
    Wishing all Health and Happiness for 2021
    Keith H Riches
    Project Director
    LMS-Patriot Project
     
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  11. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    I was hoping that was the case; very good news to hear it officially.

    Noel
     
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  12. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    Absolutely! Hear, Hear!

    Richard.
     
  13. toplight

    toplight Member

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    When the mistake with the keyway location on the wheels was first noticed, could you have not either:-

    1 Insisted that the company doing the machining replaced the wheel castings with new castings. If they screw up, they pay for new ones.

    or

    2 Adjusted the position of the keyway cut into the axle to compensate for the mistake. Normally I would expect the keyway is cut into the same position on each wheel and then the keyways are cut at 90 degrees to each other on each end of each axle, so the crankpins end up 90 degree to each other on each side, when the wheels are pressed onto each end, so if you moved the position of those keyways on the axle by the same amount you could compensate for the mistake on the wheels and still get the 90 degree quartering.

    At the end of the day the key just prevents the wheel rotating on the axle. It could be the axles and keyways on the axles had already previously been done.
     
  14. osprey

    osprey Member

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    The key ways are also stress points....
     
  15. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    First, that assumes that the original contractors have the resources to pay for this work, but second and not really to do with the problem, as a three-cylinder engine, the cranks are at 120 degrees.
     
  16. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    Others can comment on the engineering. With a little experience of commercial disputes, I will just remind you that the chances of success in such a position depend on the precise facts of the case, and what both sides said and did. Given the costs in time, effort and money of pursuing a dispute, and knowing nothing of the detail of what has gone on, I tend to the view that the Patriot project have been wise to walk away rather than get focused on enforcement actions. They may just have clawed back a year or two by taking that approach, even if it grates in other ways.


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  17. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    On this and many other three cylinder engines the cranks are set at 120 degrees but this is, or was, not always the case.
     
  18. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    As far as I know, the outside cranks were always at 120 degrees but the inside one might vary depending on the angle of the cylinder centre line, as in Gresley and Bulleid engines. But that is a bit esoteric in a discussion of the Baby Scots?
     
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  19. 242A1

    242A1 Member

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    I know it could be seen as esoteric and we don't want to be drawn into a debate concerning optimum crank angles but I just point this out because it is very important for people to understand exactly what they are dealing with and not just concerning crank angles. After all it is undoubtedly important when carrying out renewal or repair not to set the crank angles of one of the three cylinder designs which are designed around a ninety/hundred and thirty five degree crank setting on the assumption that they are 120 degrees because "they are always done this way". Mistakes can happen. Avoiding them is the cost effective option; and yes, 242A1 did have the outside cranks set at 90 degrees as did the Smith and Webb compounds.
     
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