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LMS consituent engines set aside for preservation but later scrapped.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by knotty, Feb 4, 2012.

  1. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    Stirling on the GNR was the master of producing engines that were entirely adequate for the job but with not much scope for future load increases. He was unter a strict econmy regime for many yers - the Directors had been terribly upset by someof Sturrock's excesses. So when train loads drastically increased in the period 1910 to 1923, they were outclassed and binned. Ivatt followed the same policy at first.
     
  2. bluetrain

    bluetrain New Member

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    I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Ivatt and Gresley seem to have adopted an extensive "scrap and build" policy to replace the older engines that were no longer adequate for ECML duties. The result was that the last of Stirling's passenger engines (2-4-0s and 0-4-4Ts) were withdrawn as early as 1927, while his goods engines were also heavily depleted by that time. By contrast, the last Midland Johnson 0-4-4T (one of the subjects of those abortive Derby preservation attempts) was withdrawn in 1960.

    I think that maybe another factor leading to shorter lives for Doncaster products was that the GNR only had a limited network of secondary and local services, so that once engines became inadequate for trunk main-line duties, there were restricted opportunities for further work.
     
  3. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    I know public money was involved in developing both the A4s and OVSB's 'Leader', but does anyone please have a handle on the date from which such funding was to be had, how many classes on the Big4 benefitted from grants and what conditions needed to be met to unlock these funds?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  4. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    I believe you're thinking of a low interest Government loan scheme, which I think started in the second half of the 1930s. I've seen references to it under LMS locomotive ordering, but I'm struggling to find it at the moment.
     
  5. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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  6. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    I have a (rather vague) recollection that the GWR 5275 series of 2-8-0t (which never ran before being rebuilt as 7200s) were built using Government grants.

    Anyone confirm this?
     
  7. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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  8. Jimc

    Jimc Well-Known Member

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    RCTS doesn't mention this in connection with the 5275s, but does state that 57s 6700-49, 7700-99 and 8700-49 were built "under a Government scheme to alleviate the effects of the trade depression". I think it was more the other way with the 5275s in that their work disappeared with the depression.
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    There’s also the Woolwich moguls, which were made at Government expense immediately after World War I to alleviate potential unemployment at Woolwich Arsenal; and which ended up being bought at knock-down price primarily (though not exclusively) by the SR.

    Tom
     
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  10. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Over the water, several 'kits of parts' went to the Irish MGWR (completed to 5'-3" gauge under GSR auspices) and served until the final rundown of Irish steam. The only negative feedback from Irish crews centred on the UK loading gauge cabs.
     
  11. Cartman

    Cartman Member

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    The metropolitan railway also bought a few which they converted into 2-6-4 tanks and then ended up on the LNER
     
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  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I believe that Woolwich built 100 N class locos: some assembled and some kits of parts (they built the mechanical parts, but subcontracted the boilers). Ultimately Woolwich held 110 boilers for the 100 locos, though to describe some of the boiler transfers between SR and Woolwich stock as murky would be doing murk a disservice.

    The final reckoning of those 100 was as follows:

    - Southern Railway - 50 as N class
    - Irish MGWR - 12, though 11 ended up being completed under the ownership of the GSR.
    - Irish GSR - 15, split between two classes (5'6" and 6'0" wheels) with one kit kept for spares. They also took 4 spare boilers (i.e. 19 in all).
    - Metropolitan Railway - 6 as 2-6-4 tanks
    - Southern Railway - the nominal remaining 17 were bought as miscellaneous parts and incorporated into new Ashford-built U and K class locos; the W class 2-6-4s; E1R 0-6-2T rebuilds (the trailing truck) or absorbed into the pool of spares. It appears that those parts consisted of 11 boilers, 37 sets of cylinders, 5 sets of frames, 38 pairs of coupled wheels, 17 Bissell trucks, 7 sets of tender parts and wheels, 31 chimneys and large amounts of miscellaneous plating brake shoes, coupling rods, pistons, sand containers and piping.

    When the final reckoning was done, the whole debacle had cost the taxpayer upwards of £1,000,000 loss, though the railway companies who bought parts, did eventually get a fleet of rugged, long-lived locos.

    Tom
     
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