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LMS 45036 Inspection Saloon

Discussion in 'Heritage Rolling Stock' started by nick813, Nov 17, 2013.

  1. Sawdust

    Sawdust Member

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    It depends on the pillar width. The Thompson window pillar is 2.25" so happily comes out of 2.5", I cut down on waste by getting two pillars top to toe out of about 8' of about 7" to 8" wide.

    Sawdust.
     
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  2. Thompson1706

    Thompson1706 Well-Known Member

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    A lot of the original had the consistency of Balsa wood.

    Bob.
     
  3. Sawdust

    Sawdust Member

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    It was the same with 1623 and 18477, we think it was meranti, it feels about half the weight of sapele.

    The earlier built 110 and 88339 have a mix of teak and mahogany, I suspect 1706 was the same?

    Sawdust.
     
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  4. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    There are a number of potentially cheaper timbers that could be used. The LNERCA used Keruing for some of the repairs on 1623, notably the bottom rails, and I have heard of Idigbo being used as well. It would be worth talking to a good timber merchant. about what might be available and suitable. One point is to avoid the use of kiln dried timber if you can. Buy it well in advance and stack it with laths between the layers in a cool dry place to air dry naturally. It'll be less prone to warp and split that way.
     
  5. Sawdust

    Sawdust Member

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    That's why we used kiln dried sapele on 1623 and 18477 lol.

    Sawdust.
     
  6. Thompson1706

    Thompson1706 Well-Known Member

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    The only defective timber when we restored 1706 were a couple of sections of cantrail, the main body framing being fine.
    As a comparison , G.N.R. Gresley BCK 229 dating from 1912 & built with Burma teak has one door pillar with a repairable split but is otherwise solid.
    I did however have to make two sections of cantrail ,each about 3 metres long, for which I used Sapele.

    Bob.
     
  7. stuartreeder

    stuartreeder Member

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    When I say what is the curve I mean what angle does that go off at when it gets to the clamp ?
     
  8. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    That's what's normally available though, isn't it? If there was time to wait for it to air-dry that would be the preference, I'd have thought, and it might well be cheaper if there's no input of hot air needed.
     
  9. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Time and stock in hand costs money :(
     
  10. K14

    K14 Member

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    By 'clamp', I take it you mean the pressed/forged brackets that secure the pillars to the bottomsides (the outer longitudinal timbers into which the pillars are morticed).

    Does any of the original floor survive? If you have some surviving bottomside (& it's not completely mullered), its outer edge will be chamfered - that's your angle. If the floor has gone, perhaps your first consideration ought to be pricing up the floor members (appx. 150ft of 9" x 3"assuming it's the same as a GW coach).

    P.
     
  11. Sawdust

    Sawdust Member

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    Forget angles, a carriage is defined by widths at key points. Although the Thompson and LMS pillar shapes are similar, the carriages look different due to different widths over bottom side, waist and cant rails.

    You need to get at least a general arrangement drawing and preferably also cross sections through the various compartments and end detail drawings.

    Sawdust.
     
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  12. stuartreeder

    stuartreeder Member

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    I ment in that picture sawdust,

    K14 here you are
     

    Attached Files:

  13. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    I see there is at least one of the angle brackets which hold the main side timbers to the base timber as this will give you a better idea what the diameter of the tumbler home curve.is, and spend the £20.00 on a set of drawings as well showing the timber framework. Finding what the NRM drawings contain is a problem as a lot of them are just GA drawings but not listed as such (at least the GWR drawing lists are like this) so make sure you check with them first what the drawing contains before you pay for them.
     
  14. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Up front, yes, but if you have somewhere suitable to store it you have no future worries about whether it will still be obtainable or if the price will have gone up.
     
  15. stuartreeder

    stuartreeder Member

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    On one side there is a fair few brackets for the side and the other side only has one.
     
  16. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Stuart,

    Can I suggest you look at: http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/results.asp and search for 'Designed for: LMS' and 'Type: INSP' - you will get 16 matches showing both the LMS and BR built versions of your carriage.

    It looks like 45046 at Dawlish may be up for grabs and although the record says it may not be restorable it may provide you with some bodywork parts and fittings.

    I would really recommend you get some drawings though. Some of the owners of the sister vehicles may have already sourced them so it might just be a matter of paying for copies.


    Keith
     
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  17. D1039

    D1039 Part of the furniture

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  18. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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  19. K14

    K14 Member

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    Thanks for those - quite a project.

    Looking at the pics, I think it's fairly safe to say that the entire floor pan is shot & only fit for patterns followed by a short career as lighting-up wood. I'd venture that it was pretty shot away before the fire too.

    As you plan to go down the 'flat' route initially, I'd suggest you rebuild the floor pan as per original, but leave out the mortices. Substitute some decent quality ply for the floorboards & cover the lot with a sacrificial layer of shuttering ply that can take a bit of hammering. Keruing was mentioned a few postst back; that would be a good choice for the bottomsides, endbars and floorbars as it's quite durable stuff & will resist the weather - it's commonly used as lorry decking. Evil to work with though - the dust is as nasty as they come.

    Pete S.
     
  20. Sawdust

    Sawdust Member

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    Stuart, before you remove what is left of the floor frame, get several lengths of planed softwood, say 3"x 1" and mark on to them from the original floor frame, the positions and widths of all the pillars, the position and widths of all transverse floor rails and all joints in the bottom side rail. Do them so they all overlap by at least one pillar. Also do the same for the width.

    You will then be able to mark out all the mortices and splices onto your new floor frame when you come to build it.

    Sawdust.
     

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