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LMS 2P 4-4-0

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by joshs, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    I've heard recordings of Duchesses Northbound on Shap with 14 on, unassisted, and seen photos. That's on the 1 in 75...

    Richard. :)
     
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  2. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Most men didn't take a banker with 14 on, or 12 on Beattock. Some would take a lot more, but it depended on the fireman.
     
  3. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    It's probably my eyesight, but having read your book on 2968, and looking at the photo above, it always looks to me as though the cylinders have a very slight downward slope towards the front. I'm sure they don't in reality, but in quite a few photos it seems that way.

    Richard.
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Much like that Merchant Navy then :) Devon Belle was 13 Pullmans (at about 40 tons each), unassisted up Honiton which was 1 in 70. Nominally it was non-stop Waterloo to Exeter, but because of the water capacity, locos were changed at Wilton, just west of Salisbury. At Exeter there was the normal division, with typically nine going to Ilfracombe and four to Plymouth, with a WC / BoB in charge of each portion. The up journey of that must have been fun to be on: 2 miles of 1 in 36 straight off the end of the platform at Ilfracombe, and the curving 1 in 37 climb from Exeter St David’s to Central. They did have assisting engines for those though, often an N class Mogul at Ilfracombe and an E1r 0-6-2T or Z class 0-8-0T at Exeter.

    Coming back to the LMS, apart from the demands on the fireman, the degradation of the fire and ash pan capacity after many hours must have been real issues. That was something you didn’t get on the Southern where the water situation meant that about two hours was the limit of a non-stop journey.

    Tom
     
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  5. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    I've just done a quick TE calculation for a hypothetical compound version of the Royal Scot class, on the basis of the rule of thumb that you use the boiler pressure and the dimensions of the LP cylinders. You could get about the same nominal TE of just over 33,000 lb with LP cylinders 20½" diameter and 30" stroke, which should be possible withing the British loading gauge. You'd probably want a shorter stroke and wider diameter for the inside HP cylinder.
     
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  6. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Hope you liked the book! I was bitterly disappointed when it wasn't nominated for a Booker prize or made the best sellers list; life can be a bitch at times.

    I've been going to Bridgnorth for some years now volunteering on the engine during the current overhaul. I have personally checked the tightness of the cylinder nuts and bolts, and I assure you they are not falling off! It might be just an optical illusion: we expect the cylinders to slope down to the rear, so when they don't perhaps we over-compensate and see them sloping towards the front. It's the best I can come up with on the spur of the moment, anyway.
     
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  7. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Member

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    I certainly do like the book Jim! A very nice potted history, the restoration photos alone tell a very interesting story! Interesting regarding the cylinders, I'd never suspect they'd be loose! Maybe on a WD 2-10-0 though!

    Richard. :)
     
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  8. Hermod

    Hermod New Member

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    It was mentioned somewhere that Maunsel studied the matter and decided that Pacifics on SR were not needed.
    Bulleid thought otherwise so we can conclude that steam locomotive engineering was not an exact science.
     
  9. Hermod

    Hermod New Member

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    It was mentioned somewhere that Maunsel studied the matter and decided that Pacifics on SR were not needed.
    Bulleid thought otherwise so we can conclude that steam locomotive engineering was not an exact science.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think had sufficient numbers been built to allow crews proper familiarity, a Lord Nelson could have done just about anything that the SR needed, with the possible exception of the full load Devon Belle. The advantage of the Pacifics was being able to do it with more in hand given less skilled crews and poor coal in the post war era.

    Tom
     
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  11. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    They could have gone the whole hog, painted it green and named it after a small country residence. Maybe the Cottage Class? I can see the books now 'Cottaging on the LMS and GWR'.
     
  12. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    No, it's a Stanier Crab. Suggestions for crustacean nameplates, anyone?
     
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  13. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    :D:D:D Now that would be highly amusing!!! :D:D:D
     
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  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think crabs are one occupational hazard of too much ... No, on second thoughts, let's not go there.

    Tom
     
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  15. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    The LMS - where everyone has Crabs.
     
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  16. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    And very much appreciated them: very good engine which could do anything asked of them, and a lot more besides. Although we might be talking about different subjects here, I'll valiantly continue to maintain a railway viewpoint, even if against the odds.
     
  17. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    The Stanier moguls may have been the successors of the Horwich ones, but they look very different, so why would the name "crab" still apply?
     
  18. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    They did exactly the same work and followed straight on in the number sequence, and 'look very different' is only true of the front end. If you look from the rear of the boiler rearwards, it can be quite difficult to tell them apart.

    But whatever the reason, enginemen did refer to them as Crabs, Stanier Crabs or Taper Crabs depending on the shed.
     
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  19. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    They were certainly very much the 'odd man out', style-wise on the LMS .... though, for my part, I've always liked their distinctive, unpretentious and (comparatively) modern aspect, which is every bit as striking and workmanlike as Mr.Urie's 4-6-0s must've seemed, all those years ago
     
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  20. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Member

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    the Spider Class ?

    (think about it )
     

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