If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

LMS 2P 4-4-0

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by joshs, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    1,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wiltshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer

    Interesting diagram. It appears to show that the MSLR loading gauge in 1895 limited vehicle width to a maximum of 8ft 8in below platform level.

    By 1911, Robinson was able to introduce his 2-8-0 (LNER Class O4), which was 8ft 10½in wide over its low-set 21-in cylinders. An indication that loading gauges can change over time. Presumably, some MSLR station platforms had been altered to provide greater clearance.
     
  2. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    851
    Likes Received:
    908
    Occupation:
    Design Engineer
    Location:
    Shropshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Steve, What about the phrases contained in the BR rule book 'One engine in steam working' or 'Light Engine'?

    Many of the ex BR steam men I fired for in the 1970's referred to locomotives as 'engines', particularly if they were talking dismissingly about those from another region, e.g. 'Western Engines' or 'Midland Engines'. Perhaps the term was popular in certain areas of the country, but not in others.

    Andy
     
    andrewshimmin and Wenlock like this.
  3. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,510
    Likes Received:
    7,753
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Gresley three-cylinder locos only have one though? :) Presumably Original Bulleid Pacifics likewise?
     
  4. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,186
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    On Marine Steam Engines, each cylinder & associated gubbins is an 'engine'
     
    Wenlock likes this.
  5. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Only if it's a monobloc casting.
     
    BrightonBaltic likes this.
  6. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    0A5B6149-6977-4B11-8DF5-C41852D5F83C.jpeg

    Unbelievably this was nearly two years ago. I took a group of Network Rail apprentices to the NVR and our loco for the day was 34081. Stunning loco, beautifully turned out. The obvious thing was the families boarding who were genuinely interested in what the loco was, why was it that colour, and so on.

    We underestimate the general public’s inquisitiveness and the power of our own assets at our peril.
     
    Matt37401, 35B, Wenlock and 4 others like this.
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There's a wonderful track on a Peter Handford record of a Caley o-6-0 struggling into Beattock station on a goods. The thing was barely capable of movement and expired in the platform. In the ensuing conversation the driver is asked "do you want a shove up?" In no uncertain terms he replies, "no, I want another engine."
     
    BrightonBaltic and Wenlock like this.
  8. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Indeed. Other regular questions are "why is it called 92 Squadron?" and "what's the RAF got to do with steam engines?" What's more, they're genuinely interested in the answers.
     
    35B and S.A.C. Martin like this.
  9. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Absolutely. Much the same response we had when we were at the Bluebell last summer with ‘28.
     
    Spamcan81 and 35B like this.
  10. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    14,318
    Likes Received:
    16,396
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    So why, in the BR rule book is there a head code for a light engine? Looking at the 1950 rule book, the index entry under engines has 24 subheadings while locomotive ha just one. The terms are interchangeable. I rest my case.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
    Wenlock likes this.
  11. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    We all use the term interchangeably, including me, but technically, locomotive and engine are two different things. An electric locomotive doesn't have an engine and I don't think I have ever heard anybody use the term 'electric engine' yet we regularly say steam engine or diesel engine when referring to locomotives.
     
    MellishR likes this.
  12. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,510
    Likes Received:
    7,753
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Is it not the fact that two sets of valve gear are shared (by conjugation) between three cylinders, that makes it one 'engine'?
     
    BrightonBaltic and Steve like this.
  13. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Why does the Group standard rulebook refer to 'whistle' and why do we have whistle boards when, apart from 08's and heritage locos, no loco has had one since 1968? It could easily be changed to 'warning' in many cases but, interestingly, whilst whistle in itself is an action, neither 'warning' nor horn' are and it would have to be 'sound warning' or 'sound horn'.
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yes. on a two cylinder loco either 'engine' will run on its own quite independent of the other but that is not the case with a conjugated valve gear.
     
    BrightonBaltic and Wenlock like this.
  15. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    14,318
    Likes Received:
    16,396
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Traditions die hard. The sign warning road users of a rail crossing is still a silhouette of a steam loco over 50 years after the end of steam. Unfortunately we have exchanged railway station for the awful train station and a signalman will never be a signaller to me. London Underground trains still have whistles
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  16. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    14,318
    Likes Received:
    16,396
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    As you have probably found out it’s the same with the passengers at Victoria after a Belmond trip.
     
    S.A.C. Martin likes this.
  17. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    4,445
    Likes Received:
    6,546
    What's this signalman stuff, John? Sounds dreadfully 20th Century to me. What's wrong with the term bobbie?:)

    Peter
     
    jnc, Johnb, pmh_74 and 3 others like this.
  18. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,217
    Likes Received:
    1,456
    Surely a 'light engine' is one which runs on light? BR were obviously anticipating the future invention of photovoltaic cells by a few decades. I expect there were special rules about not stopping them in tunnels. ;)
     
  19. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    14,318
    Likes Received:
    16,396
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Agree, Bobbie is even better although 19th century
     
  20. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    1,252
    Likes Received:
    1,566
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Alton, Hants
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It's possible, I suppose, that the term'whistle' is laid down in various Railway Acts.
    Re: 'Light Engine'. Some years ago, while waiting for the engine of the Holybourne tanks to run round at Alton I was talking to on of the S&T crew working on the starting signal gantry. He told me that they were installing 'light engines' in place of filament bulbs. At which moment my engine passed us and he added that to him that was a 'light engine'!
    Pat
     
    S.A.C. Martin and Wenlock like this.

Share This Page