If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Llangollen Railway

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by 14xx Lover, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    20,391
    Likes Received:
    36,866
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    OK, I see where you are coming from ... but ...

    Long experience of maintaining data has convinced me that the best way to ensure it is maintained accurately is for the responsibility for maintenance to be with those who benefit from its accuracy.

    So in the case of the company's own assets, that means a company-maintained asset register. But for other items on site, but not company owned, in an ideal world the company would have agreements with the owners. (Fred Bloggs bought his rusty old asbestos-ridden carriage onto the railway 40 years ago: under what agreement is he allowed to continue his once-in-a-blue-moon restoration visits?) So for company-owned assets you have an asset register, and for everything else, you have an agreement, but either way the best place to maintain those records is within the company's own record system, because they are the party directly affected by poor records. (When Fred Bloggs has an accident with a power tool while working on his carriage, understanding the arrangement under which he was carrying out that work suddenly becomes very important).

    I realise that in some ways I am describing an ideal situation, and in many cases it is difficult to track down agreements, and in some cases ownership, from events that happened decades ago. But that still doesn't to my mind mean that the ideal solution is to outsource the responsibility for maintaining such records to a third party. In the case of trying to track down long-lost agreements, the third party is in no better position to do so than the company on site. And for new agreements, since a third party has no stake in the accuracy, there is no incentive on any party to keep the records up-to-date: the likely situation being that just when you need such records, you find you can not rely on them.

    Tom
     
  2. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    15,133
    Likes Received:
    12,202
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Let me take an alternative view, knowing the work that goes on by volunteers at my church to maintain the asset register there. This is not so much required for accounting purposes (though it is relevant), but to enable assessment of insurance requirements, and simply to know what the church has to look after. That includes a modicum of bureacracy when gifts are made to the church, so that it is clear what has been given rather than (say) loaned - and to enable the church to manage disposals if required.

    In both cases, the contents are a mixture of functional items and historic artefacts; knowing what is on loan in the event of (say) the death of the loaner is important for handling events.
     
  3. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    14,284
    Likes Received:
    8,648
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Many years ago, people brought coaches direct from Service, and they had a verbal agreement to base them on their line, thats why they purchased them, then over time, owners have died, the will does not include the coach, so the executors are un aware of it, the company then because it's part of the running fleet, assume its now theirs, after all they have been maintaining it for years, the next of kin most likily don't want it, or have wound up the affairs of the deceased years ago, so when the Reciever comes across this coach, and in their eyes its an asset , can they legally sell it?
     
    jnc likes this.
  4. lostlogin

    lostlogin New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    174
    For a myriad of reasons I think the risk of a receiver disposing of assets which do not belong to the PLC is probably fairly remote. The receiver has a duty of care and is required to make reasonable enquiries to satisfy themselves that the assets they are selling are owned by the company. Similarly the buyer would be expected to undertake some due diligence. This might simply be reviewing and relying on the documentation, representations presented or if they think they are inadequate they will make further enquiries. It would be a right pain in the butt for both the receiver and the buyer if the receiver sold an asset that they were not entitled to sell so I think it is reasonable to assume they will be looking to sell assets first that have both a decent value but evidence of ownership. That will be from the accounting records of the company but also myriads of other paperwork. There may be "wrecks" that are lying about that the ownership is uncertain but I doubt that would be the case with regard to anything that runs. As others have said there will be ownership and other agreements. I don't know what is in these agreements but if I had a vehicle that ran I would want some decent agreement that sets out the apportionment of liability between the operator and owner in the event of an accident.

    There are also a certain percentage of enthusiasts, who the public will view as nerds, who seem to have microscopic knowledge of all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff to the extent if a question over the ownership arose of a vehicle there etc would probably be somebody who would come out of the woodwork who was prepared to give the receiver a complete history lesson on the vehicle over many hours. The average receiver might just dump the idea of thinking of disposing if it meant have to go through the history lesson again.
     
  5. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,187
    Likes Received:
    1,650
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swanage
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Do not always assume that even big companies always have good records. I may have mentioned before my company sold and leased back a B747 to a Japenese Bank on a Friday. On the following Monday we sent an engineer out to the aircraft to affix the new owners nameplate only to find we had already previously sold it to a different Japanese Bank. So a few phone calls and the ended up buying a different aircraft!
     
  6. D1039

    D1039 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    1,784
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    North Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Paul Jackson on the SVR Forum has noticed a recent change on the website:

    "PLEASE NOTE LLANGOLLEN RAILWAY IS CURRENTLY CLOSED. WE HAVE NO TRAINS RUNNING FOR THE FORSEEABLE FUTURE AND NO BOOKINGS ARE BEING TAKEN.

    LLANGOLLEN RAILWAY PLC – IN ADMINISTRATION

    Ian Coleman and Jason Mark Elliott of Cowgill Holloway Business Recovery LLP were appointed as Joint Administrators of Llangollen Railway Plc on 25 March 2021.

    The operating and engineering assets, together with the business potential, are currently being marketed for sale and should you have any interest in purchasing the business and / or assets, please contact Michael Booth or James Hanson of Lambert Smith Hampton by email on mbooth@lsh.co.uk or jhanson@lsh.co.uk"

    Nothing we didn't suspect but the changes are: it confirms there are administrators (and not receivers); that they are now looking potentially to sell assets rather than the business as a whole; and the previous deadline of 22 March has been removed since it passed without the business being sold.

    Patrick
     
  7. Kje7812

    Kje7812 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    505
    Location:
    Kidderminster/ Edinburgh
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I suspect this means things will drag out for a while sadly.
     
  8. Ploughman

    Ploughman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Messages:
    5,122
    Likes Received:
    2,095
    Occupation:
    Ex a lot of things.
    Location:
    Near where the 3 Ridings meet
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Read elsewhere that all previous bids are now declared Null and Void.
    Any prospective buyers need to reapply.
     
  9. 61624

    61624 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    4,016
    Likes Received:
    1,878
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Obviously the PLC can't rn trains but what about the Trust?
     
  10. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2019
    Messages:
    488
    Likes Received:
    640
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brighton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The Trust are aiming to take over running of the trains. However there are a lot of legal and regulatory hoops to jump through first, as well as practical arrangements to sort out. So it won’t he happening imminently.
     
    jnc likes this.
  11. Great Western

    Great Western New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    102
    I'm sure I've heard on the hit gutter trash channel 5 program 'cant pay, take it away' that its up to the debtor to prove ownership of XYZ or the item gets taken, held for 14 days then sold if ownership cant be proven with an original bill of sale.
    Like 99% of you I could produce a receipt for anything in my house, let alone a specialist tool or railway vehicle brought many a decade ago.
     
  12. Ploughman

    Ploughman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Messages:
    5,122
    Likes Received:
    2,095
    Occupation:
    Ex a lot of things.
    Location:
    Near where the 3 Ridings meet
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Or even one for your house.
     
  13. 61624

    61624 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    4,016
    Likes Received:
    1,878
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    What legal and regulatory hoops might those be? Please expand on this statement, since you clearly feel that you know. The Trust already holds the operating licence. it may need an SMS but it could use another similar railway's as a template to save time or even copy the PLC's. I can't see any major issues other than perhaps ownership of the extension track and that can be dealt with by not using the extension at this time.

    It seems to me to be of the utmost importance that the LR should run trains sooner rather than later, both to start generating income again and just as importantly, keep faith with the various stakeholders who have helped to prop it up over the last year or two.
     
  14. Great Western

    Great Western New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    102
    I keep that safe !
     
  15. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,661
    Likes Received:
    1,927
    Location:
    i.o.m
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    AIUI the section of track where ownership is in question lies between Glyn and Carrog so not on the "extension".
    Ray.
     
  16. 61624

    61624 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    4,016
    Likes Received:
    1,878
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I can see how that would make things tricky but does that constitute "a lot of legal and regulatory hoops"?
     
  17. Matt78

    Matt78 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,346
    Likes Received:
    1,841
    Occupation:
    Solicitor
    Location:
    South Wales
    the Trust may possibly need a license exemption from ORR, there is a lead time for this.

    https://www.orr.gov.uk/guidance-compliance/rail/operator-licences-exemptions/licence-exemptions
     
  18. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2019
    Messages:
    488
    Likes Received:
    640
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brighton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Sounds like quite a major legal hoop to me.

    A licence exemption from the ORR also sounds like a regulatory hoop.
     
  19. 61624

    61624 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    4,016
    Likes Received:
    1,878
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    So despite your earlier pontification, you really have no more idea than anyone else! No-one does outside those intimately involved and they haven't chosen to divulge so why make sweeping statements with no foundation? Personally I would rather wait for a statement from more authoritative source!
     
  20. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2019
    Messages:
    488
    Likes Received:
    640
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brighton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I’m not quite sure what your problem is. I think it’s quite obvious that there are going to be legal
    and regulatory challenges to the Trust running the railway, as there would be with any new entity taking over the running of a railway. Especially one that has gone into administration.

    My statement without foundation has been backed up by at least two other users. Perhaps you should have a go at them too.
     

Share This Page