Liverpool Road and the Ordsall Curve.

That's already possible with a change at Crewe, a through service would need to cross the WCML on the level and probably replace the EMU stopping service too due to limited capacity for further services turning back at the airport - i can't see it being worthwhile.

If more direct airport services from Chester can be justified then extending those via Warrington would be much simpler.

Chris

 

I just wonder how many pax from these places want to go to Manchester Airport. Have O/D studies revealed anything? I cite the HS2 study which shewed that 90% of pax wanted to go to central London and not Heathrow, which led to the recommendation to run a shuttle from OOC.

Pax with cases don't have a problem as long as there are no stairs because the cases run on wheels nowadays. I cannot believe the Ordsall curve which I now know, thanks to John Stewart, will damage the MOSI line, is justified by the needs of Airport pax. But what do the O/D studies shew?

 

The Ordsall Chord is much broader than that - it is a fundamental part of the Northern Hub scheme to reorganise service's into and through Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly. Airport passengers are far from the only beneficiaries.

If you want to see what the Manchester Hub study, on which the Northern Hub scheme is based, says it can be read here.

Chir

 

Sorry Chris, and thanks, I had downloaded that one so perhaps I came over as a little naive I was just making the point that a lot of responses here only dealt with the issue of access to the Airport, giving me the impression that they thought that was what the chord was for.

 

The reason the chord is being built is to avoid movement conflicts in the station throat at Piccadilly station. What it will do is to ensure that all services to and from the airport will use the pair of tracks on the western side of the four track line between Piccadilly and Slade Lane Junction.
It might look OK on paper, but, in reality, movement chaos is expected between Ordsall Lane Junction/Victoria/Castlefield Junction/ Piccadilly. It is bad enough now, with most trains being checked by signals at least twice between Ordsall Lane Junction and Piccadilly. It might sound alright in expertspeak, if every train were to run to time, but that does not happen.

 

If the Hope Valley enhancements give a couple of freight paths an hour that would be very useful. Apart from freight benefits (freight on a fast route isn't much good if it gets looped frequently) it isn't all that pleasant for passengers to stand on the restricted platforms at Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Deansgate watching endless containers roll past their noses.

 

I think countrywide as well as just Manchester, we have to go backwards to an extent to free up capacity for more trains to different destinations, for one destination, 8 coaches every 30 mins is better than 2 coaches every 10 mins, you don't even need new trains for that, just lash 3/4 units together.

 

...which is caused by trains waiting to use the platforms at Oxford Road and Piccadilly, which when addressed with extra platforms and resignalling will provide the extra capacity required for the Ordsall Chord - as has been explained many times before.

Making sure trains run to time will always be an issue, but timetable reliability should benefit from the proposed Northern Hub service patterns and infrastructure improvements, and electrification should help too.

Chris

 

It has been "proven" (perhaps by those who wanted to prove it?!) using passenger figures etc that the public indeed respond better to four 2-coach trains an hour than, say, one 8-coach. The catch 22 of course is that as service popularity increases as a result of these increased frequencies you get crushes on the popular services.

In Manchester, the same process was also introduced (successfully) with buses following deregulation, when they scrapped 30 minute double-decker services and replaced them with a 10 minute minibus service. They later had to ditch the minibuses as the services got more popular.

Determining which method of operation is better has sparked fierce debate and is often quite politically loaded (especially when deregulation/privitisation/government policy is discussed), so I personally won't go any further on that one!

 

I was on Oxford Road when a 2-car 158 pulled in bound for Norwich. The family alongside me recognised the front end & colours of the train not as an "East Midlands service" but as "oh it's the sardine train"!!

 

Do you know the area being discussed? You are not checked at Ordsall Lane West Junction or Castlefield Junction because of a shortage of platform space elsewhere. You are stopped because another train or two is coming across your path. With the chord, there will be two additional junctions added in this small area. That is a recipe for chaos.
Oxford Road Station already has two through platforms in each direction. The main problem at Oxford Road is that it is not customer friendly by today's standards. It needs a major refurbishment/rebuild to bring it up to modern day requirements.

 

I am aware of the area. I'm also aware of South London and the Inner Circle where flat junctions and signal checks are commonplace - while far from ideal it doesn't prevent an intensive service.

Not only will headways through the corridor be reduced by the Northern Hub scheme but changes to service patterns should also provide an opportunity to make the timetable more resilient with most services through the corridor turning back at the Airport, infrastructure improvements such as resignalling and more flexible track layouts cutting delays, along with extra, more reliable rolling stock. Looking ahead, further electrification and grade separation of Ordsall Lane are likely with a scheme for the latter already costed by NR.

Regarding Oxford Road, though it already has two platforms for each direction apparently alterations are needed to allow the proposed parallel moves.

Chris

 

Some years ago it was correctly identified that long gaps between trains were a great disincentive to rail travel. If one knew that missing one would result in a two-hour wait for the next there was great temptation to go by car. Increased fequency, accompanied by shorter trains to provide the same seating capacity was the solution and, with the adoption of clockface-interval timing, it worked commercially.

Circumstances change and we now have a huge pressure on capacity on parts of the network. Frequency has, in some cases, been overdone and could be scaled back. For instance, providing four coaches every 20 minutes as opposed to three every 15 minutes would hardly be a worsening of service but could well provide that little bit of extra capacity. Other advantages are more productive use of train staff and possibly the ability to make on-train catering viable on inter-urban services.

A further capacity gain would arise from the more widespread adoption of splitting and joining trains en route. The Southern has always managed this but, whilst occasionally done, it seems that there is resistance to it elsewhere because of the lack of confidence in the portions presenting on time. There are plenty of "outposts" on services that eventually converge on Manchester and the Castlefield corridor where combining portions would lead to an easing of capacity in the central area. If properly organised, one could "change trains" by walking through the connection during the combined part of the journey - much less stressful than at stations with restricted time and possibly a platform change.

 

I agree a 2 hours wait in 2012 is unacceptable, but 30 mins doesn't seem too unreasonable to me as long as theres reasonable capacity when it arrives, pathing between Birmingham New St & Kings Norton for example can be a headache, chiefly due to the cross city service of a 3 car class 323 every 10 mins, 6 cars or 9 in peaks every 20 mins doesn't seem too bad to me.

 

For some reason the joining & splitting of trains has become something that has fallen out of favour - I do wonder how much of it is due to the fear of being sued, should someone take a tumble, or spill their tea/coffee whilst sets are being joined with folk still on board...

It's crazy - for years I travelled on the Liverpool/Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh services, which combined & split at Preston & Carstairs. Just HOW did we all survive, eh?

Mark

 

works very well in Europe.. especially eastern europe.. passenger carriages are shunted with passengers still in them between several trains continuously throughout the day... Budapest Keleti station is a wonder to watch !

 

I know - and yet in the UK we seem to be paranoid about it - why?

Mark

 

Dare I say- Health and Safety nonsense.