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Last Chance Hotel?

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by lynton&barnstaple, Jul 18, 2010.

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  1. StoneRoad

    StoneRoad Member

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    OK I asked for that, which one do you mean?
     
  2. SpudUk

    SpudUk Member

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    I think he meant the change of management.

    A RoA debate would be interested as there is some speculation as to changes between the 22nd and 24th centuries
     
  3. StoneRoad

    StoneRoad Member

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    Actually, I think it is a bit too late for nominations!

    and @ SpudUK - debate all ready and waiting!

    *gets coat!* (and I need it - raining like there is no tomorrow!)
     
  4. crantock

    crantock Member

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    Stoneroad is right that this thread has derailed but ultimately, I do not think it is constructive to talk of a "peace process" a few days before the WHHR AGM. If one thing is clear it is that they do not take kindly to being dictated to and will, quite rightly, make their own minds up on their own way forward in their own time.

    Mornington Crescent with Welsh place names seems interesting. We could call it Minffordd Yard.
     
  5. Nexuas

    Nexuas New Member

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    I think one of the things which is clear and to be expected in these situations is that there is considerable difference of opinion within the WHHR about how to move forward.

    There are those that feel it is regular Pont Croesor trains or nothing at all.
    Those that feel nothing at all is best.
    There are those who feel we should do whatever is required to get RUSSELL and the heritage train on the Rhe, regardless of the caveats and conditions imposed.
    Those that feel a more moderate line of negotiation is required, but feel that we are going to have to give on at least one or two points in a way to get a foot in the door and prove that we can operate on the Rhe and add to the project.

    It think the positions taken generally stem from what people have put into the project and what they will get out of it in the long run. I will come out as part of option 4, as I think it is the only way which will move us forward with the chance of developing the WHHR role in the Rhe.
     
  6. SpudUk

    SpudUk Member

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    I am all for option 4 too
     
  7. StoneRoad

    StoneRoad Member

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    I was not attempting to dictate to anyone, including the WHHR, I was merely trying to re-rail the thread, by paraphrasing the OP.

    StoneRoad
     
  8. cct man

    cct man New Member

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    So why not offer your services as a negotiator and peacemaker as you are obviously the man for the job as you know so much about it?

    BTW I am not being sarcastic at all, this is a genuine proposal.

    Regards
    Chris
     
  9. StoneRoad

    StoneRoad Member

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    Thanks, for the suggestion, Chris! but a "neutral negoitator" would have to be acceptable to both sides (not saying that I wouldn't be in that position, but I do have a day job!), and in any case, I do not know all the ins and outs of the situation. I have been in the part of an interested spectator.
     
  10. Nexuas

    Nexuas New Member

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    If people from the HRA and Visit Wales etc have not been able to get the talks on track, I don't think anyone else is going to.

    The Ball is firmly in the court of the WHHR Board, they are the only people who are going to be able to move this situation on. (The FR board could change their stance but I think this is unlikely in the extreme and the only place for any movement will be on the part of the WHHR.)

    The tone of the AGM will be the deciding factor in the railway's future, sadly I am not in Wales this Saturday to make my points, but I will be arriving in port on Sunday to view the aftermath. I have voted in the board elections, a gesture which I hope will further my hopes for the WHHR/FR relationship, although I have a fear that the long term future of the railway will be at the detriment of the short term Day to day running, and local promotion. (Read into that what you wish...)

    [anyone wishing to see the pink {sorry Red!!} engine in steam should venture up this coming week as it will be on trains from Monday morning for the week - I will be warming it up On Sunday afternoon to avoid a much earlier start on Monday]
     
  11. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Member

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    I agree that intermediaries arent going to help; it is up to the WHHR, whose situation is really quite simple - they have yet to come up with a proposal that is acceptable to the FR.

    The reasons why the first, and it seems only, operating proposal was refused still apply as much today as they did two years ago. While these are varied, in my opinion the main problem is a shift in philosophy since the 1998 agreement - moving away from just being happy to operate heritage trains at no financial risk to themselves, towards running a service which could secure the financial future of the WHHR. An understandable aim, but unrealistic given the implications.

    Chris
     
  12. StoneRoad

    StoneRoad Member

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    Well, all being well, we shall soon know.......

    I may be waiting, but I shall keep breathing normally.
     
  13. lostlogin

    lostlogin New Member

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    I have seen too many disputes like this over the years not necessarily involving railways and it takes a lot of banging of heads together or an awful lot of pride being swallowed by one side if there is going to be substantial movement on the issue. I am sorry but as an outsider I do not see it in this case.

    I am not sure if you mean it to but your statement does come across very much as if the FR have a position and the WHHR have to agree to it or there is nothing doing. I would also say that whilst your statement may be true, I have no idea I am a complete outsider so will accept it at face value, I would have to say that stating it is ineffect for one side to resolve is not generally how to get things moving. Unless both sides believe there might be a bit of give and take from the other side and are prepared to as well, and I appreciate it may be very heavily weighted in one or directions, then any matter that has stalled is unlikely to start up again.

    As in any negotiation I feel that to get it started there has to be seen that there is room for manouevre and compromise. Even if there is actually very little room and it is only used for saving face at the end. In this case nobody is even giving the impression that there is any room for compromise which is why I have severe concerns the parties will come to the table again. Hopefully though it is all just postyring and behind the scenes something more constructive is happening.
     
  14. TonyW

    TonyW New Member

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    I remain puzzled as to what the FR would gain by allowing WHHR trains to run to Pont Croesor/Beddgelert/wherever.
     
  15. SpudUk

    SpudUk Member

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    But its not a financial gain is it...its more then that. I think the heritage aspect is really important, and one of the main reasons I have made the effort to come to the WHR, despite visiting ever other Welsh railway (nearly anyways), and the reason I really enjoy the Ffestiniog. Its in their interest to run Vale of Ffestiniog on every train because its cheaper...they run Prince and Palmeston because its what the world has a passion for :D
     
  16. Merchant_of_Venice

    Merchant_of_Venice New Member

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    Why would you want on involve an operation whose senior management have spent the last two years consistantly sniping at you? Lest we forget the hate poster campaign.
     
  17. SpudUk

    SpudUk Member

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    Yeeea...we need to ignore the management issue and focus on the heritage benifits of the WHHR and FR/WHR getting on...
     
  18. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Member

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    Given that half your posts on this forum, and most of your initial ones, have been about the WHR im not sure i'd describe you as a 'complete outsider', but anyway...

    I certainly didnt intend to suggest that the FR have a stated position that the WHHR must agree with, but there are fundamental infrastructure, financial and legal issues that any agreement must bare in mind. Unfortunately it seems that the WHHR's proposal didnt, and despite two years of negotiations there was no 'Plan B' - despite the draft operating agreement signed up to in 1998, the WHHR no longer want to be paid for operating FR services but pay a charge to run their own.

    While this is understandable, i wouldnt say its been forced upon them, and neither does it seem to me the only option for the WHHR to make at least some money out of the operation - instead it seems to be driven out of a desire to remain at arms-length from the FR.

    Unfortunately, rather than admit that they are the ones unwilling to compromise, they put out what many see as a disingenuous press release saying such services have been 'banned', in what looks like an effort to damage the FR's reputation in the local and railway communities - pointlessly damaging relations.

    Why not just say that they couldnt come to an agreement and they look forward to further negotiations in the future? If they want to be treated as an equal partner as their proposal seems to suggest, such behaviour has hardly helped their cause.

    Chris
     
  19. lostlogin

    lostlogin New Member

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    Chris

    i am a complete outsider in that I am not a member or have any involvement or active interest in ither railway. My father though is a member ofthe FR and I have i probably have a ride on the FR once a year. I have only once been on the WHHR. I accept a reasonable proportion of my posts have been broadly related to the WHR, but Welsh Narrow Gauge is my main area of interest and the the WHR probably comprises the majority of posts in this part of the forum overall. My posts just probably reflect that.

    I am trying to be impartial in this and not lay blame at either side because I do not have the knowledge. What I would like to see at some point are heritage trains runing on the WHR and I am sure that is the view of the majority. Who operates them, where they run from, how income and costs are split I personally do not mind. However all the sniping or whatever on either side is not going to assist that ever happening because as Merchant of Venice post reminds me all that does build up ill will on the other side which will take a long time to be forgotten.

    All I am basically trying to say is it would be great if either side could turn the other cheek as the chances of the other side of accepting the others position are surely going to be much higher if they have publically been nice about the other and give the impression they have sympathy with each other even if in private they hate each others guts. Presently all I can see is views and opinions being entrenched and whilst time is a healer and people and views change the more animosity that has historically built up then the higher the hurdle that is to be jumped if views are to change overtime.
     
  20. AndrewT

    AndrewT New Member

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    Heritage trains already run on the WHR.
     
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