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Kings Cross to Hull traction in late 50's/early 60's before dieselisation

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by hatherton hall, May 1, 2020.

  1. hatherton hall

    hatherton hall Member

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    Can anyone advise me of typical traction on the direct Kings Cross to Hull services in steam days during late 50's and early 60's prior to dieselisation and if engine changing would have taken place en-route.

    There seems not to have been too many direct services but one, the 1826 from Kings Cross was a Restaurant Car service direct to Hull calling at Huntingdon (2), Peterborough (5), Grantham (5), Newark (4), Retford (4), Doncaster (3), Goole (3) and Brough (1)+. The figures in brackets are the station stop times and so there would be time to change engines at Grantham for example.

    Here's hoping someone has some information.
     
  2. std tank

    std tank Member

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    Interesting question. There was nothing bigger than B1s allocated to Dairycoates and Botanic Gardens.
     
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  3. hatherton hall

    hatherton hall Member

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    It seems that the focus of most publications and videos from the steam era are of East Coast mainline services to York, Newcastle, Leeds and Edinburgh.

    According to the 1960 public timetable, only 3 direct services ran direct between Kings Cross and Hull daily which included a RC or buffet car which was detached at Doncaster. I can't recall seeing a B1 leaving Kings Cross on a Class 1 duty and so I suspect that a Gresley pacific or V2 would take the train as far as say Grantham or Doncaster, where a B1 would take over. The same in the opposite direction.

    Pure speculation but I will continue to investigate. If anyone else can contribute, that would be great.

    Hatherton Hall
     
  4. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    My recollection is that B1s out of KX were on the Cambridge Buffet Trains and the Cleethorpes trains (pre-Brits).

    Also I suspect the Hull trains were actually portions of West Riding trains (eg Harrogate), so may well have been A1 hauled to Doncaster then the portion B1 to Hull. EDIT-- looking at Bradshaw, only the Yorkshire Pullman was a portion.

    A fascinating source, though unwieldy, is David Hey's photography site.

    EDIT Townend's book Top Shed states that the only 34A B1 working beyond Skegness was a lodging turn on a Hull goods. He says that restrictions did not permit the larger locos to operate beyond Doncaster to Hull. So that suggests that on the passenger workings, locos will have been changed at Doncaster.

     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
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  5. Bridlingtonian

    Bridlingtonian New Member

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  6. Bridlingtonian

    Bridlingtonian New Member

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    In 1961 I caught the 8.47am through train Hull to KX on 3 occasions and the locos were all K3 class. 61814, 61898 and 61901 which would work as far as Doncaster. The 10.33 Yorkshire Pullman cars from Hull joined the West Yorkshire portion at Doncaster and were often worked from Hull in the late 1950’s by class D49. Class v3 was also used.
    I twice caught the through Hull carriages on the 2.10 departure from KX at Retford..the Hull portion was to the rear of the train....17/8 /61. 60156 to Doncaster then 61985 with the through portion to Hull. On 28/8/62 60034 to Doncaster then D6734 to Hull. I have seen no record of Pacifics working through to Hull from KX, they only visited Hull rarely and then from the Leeds or York direction.

    Class B1 was also used on the KX trains to Doncaster. The K3s had all gone by the end of 1962 and were replaced on the Doncaster turns by EE3 D6730- 41 based at Dairycoates. B16s also appeared at Dairycoates from late 1962 but mainly on freight...on one Saturday in Sept 1963 61463 worked the Filey Holiday Camp to KX through Bridlington but used the Hull avoiding line.
     

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  7. hatherton hall

    hatherton hall Member

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    That's brilliant. Thank you so much. Just to explain, I run a "generic" all regions train service on my model railway based around 1961. I have three depots (WR,ER/MR and SR). Each circuit represents 3 miles. As mentioned in my first post, the 1826 from Kings Cross (according to the 1960 Eastern Region timetable) ran direct to Hull with the buffet car removed at Doncaster. Based on your information I suspect this is where the engine change was too. So tonight, V2 60807 will work to Doncaster and 61930 Doncaster to Hull!!!
     
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  8. Kylchap

    Kylchap Member

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    Thanks, it's tremendous to get such detail from someone who was there. The final K3s certainly seemed to be finished off very suddenly. It was the same with the March based K3s that worked coal trains through Lincolnshire - overnight replacement by Brush Type 2s.
     
  9. bluetrain

    bluetrain Member

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    The RCTS "Locos of LNER" has the following comment in respect of route restrictions in 1947:

    "The Hull-Doncaster line, although practically free of limitation as far as the end of NE ownership at Thorne, was in effect an RA7 [20-ton axle-load] route, with classes D49, K3 & K5 also allowed, due to the fact that the continuation southward from Thorne to Doncaster on the GC route carried such a restriction."

    B1, B16/1 and B17 were all within the RA7 limit. There were also apparently isolated instances of V2s working over the line (with special permission?), including once after a naming ceremony in 1937.

    LNER Pacifics would in theory have been able to reach Hull via the Selby route. Did Hull have a turntable long enough for them?
     
  10. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    I seem to recall that on a visit in 1977 I noted a Class 31 arriving with a Hull portion that was joined onto a Deltic-hauled Leeds - Kings Cross service. Presuming this reflected the normal operation in steam days then I would suspect Pacific haulage on a Leeds service with the Hull portion attached / detached at Doncaster to work forward behind a B1 4-6-0.
     
  11. peckett

    peckett Member

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    3 or 5 mins to change engines and or to split a train seems a bit tight to me.
     
  12. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I once timed an NYMR fireman at 13 seconds from ducking under to coming out whilst coupling up. Not something I could do, though!
     
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  13. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    Used to be possible on the Southern with splitters and joiners.
     
  14. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

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    Yes. But only by using buckeye couplers, and air brake hoses which could safely be joined/split without going under.
     
  15. 5944

    5944 Part of the furniture

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    3 minutes was normal at Rickmansworth when changing from steam to electric or vice versa on Met services.
     
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  16. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    In winter 1960, there were four KX to Hull trains on weekdays, all via Thorne. Only the Yorkshire Pullman was split at Doncaster. I suspect the timetable must have been recast sometime around 1970 when the direct KX to Bradford portions ceased.

    The Yorkshire Pullman down had 5 mins to split the train and a further 8 mins to attach the loco to the Hull section. In the up direction it had 10 mins to attach the Hull section to the main train, the section having arrived 5 mins before.
     
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  17. Bridlingtonian

    Bridlingtonian New Member

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    Bluetrain asks whether Hull sheds had a 70' turntable to allow Pacifics to be turned. Dairycoates had 3 60' tables
    and Botanic Gardens one 60' so t he answer is no! Triangles were available at Dairycoates and later near Paragon station.
    W B Yeadon detailed Pacifics visiting Hull in his book 'More Illustrated History of the Railways of Hull' The first on a revenue
    earning service was the Raven pacific 2401 'City of Kingston of Hull' which arrived on a freight from York via Beverley several
    times in the mid 1930s. It returned with a goods via Selby and Chuch Fenton so did not need to be turned. In BR days there were
    very occasional visits from all LNER 462 classes on freight and passenger trains via Selby or Market Weighton.
     
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  18. peckett

    peckett Member

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    A visit to all three Hull sheds on Sunday 23/03/1955 produced no 4-6-2s.One thing that was a surprise, at 53B Botanic Gardens ,were four L M S Fowler 2-6-2Ts, 40012/40045/40059 and 40061,just transferred from 26F Lees. However they didn't stay long ,they were transferred back to the Midland region, 2 A Rugby, in a short time.
    I've no idea what they came to replace ,maybe the G5 0-4-4T .Please see photo'.
     

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