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Kerr Stuart Wren @ Aberystwyth

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by jamesd, Nov 2, 2009.

  1. Dumphrey

    Dumphrey New Member

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    Well done, lads. That's a nice little plateful to chew on over the winter.
    I had heard rumours about a Bagnall but it all went quiet. Let's hope that it does have some substance; it would be great to see 2228 emerge. As far as I know it’s the only NG 0-4-4 around.
    Thanks to Jud, Anthony and Charlie for filling the details of my previous rambling. I can at least update my database re “Pearl 2”. Yes Charlie, it was your report I was alluding to re “Margaret” but I had heard a rumour that it had been delayed. Well you know what these rumours are – all smoke and mirrors (or should that be ashes)
    I hope 3114 does re-emerge somewhere next year.

    Not on this thead but does anyone know the current ownership/location of Fletcher Jennings 173L “William Finlay”. It has dropped well below the horizon, as has Bagnall 2287 “Sinembe”. It did belong to G Walton Binns and was residing at Cargo Fleet, N.Yorks but I did hear that it had gone to join “Collection X”. Can anybody shine some light please.

    Ian
     
  2. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Finlay has a new owner who is restoring it and would prefer to remain anonymous from my recollection and Sinembe is still with Graeme with two other Bagnalls at Cargo Fleet. (sorry for being a bit terse, it's the purple moose speaking!)
     
  3. Dumphrey

    Dumphrey New Member

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    Thanks again, Anthony.
    I can understand that some owners prefer to remain anonymous, bearing in mind how intrusive some so called enthusiasts can be. I was just interested to know what had happened to the loco as it has been out of sight for so long.
    Am I right in assuming that the other Bagnall’s at Cargo Fleet also belong to Graeme Walton Binns & are 2 of the following: 2627 “A Boulle”, 2819 “Charles Whytock”. 2820 “Egolomi”/”Robert Armstrong”? Any idea where the other one is? (and don’t worry about the purple moose!)

    Ian
     
  4. tractionenginedriver

    tractionenginedriver New Member

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    Prehaps the new boiler was for Lew
     
  5. ghost

    ghost Well-Known Member

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    Isibutu, which was restored at the North Gloucestershire Railway, ran at a couple of railways, was then sold to Graham Lee and now lives on the Statfold Barn railway, is listed in several places as being works no 2820. Several websites list this loco as being Egolomi - so either the loco is carrying the wrong name, or the wrong works no.
    There are 3 other locos of this type (2287/2627/2819) which are still listed on uklocos as being in N.Yorks under Mr Walton-Binns' ownership.

    For reference these locos were part of a batch of 13 built for the Tongaat Sugar plantation in Natal, S.Africa.
    They were:
    2287 1926 4-4-0T 10" X 15" 2' - 0" Tongaat ' SINEMBE' (possibly also carried the name 'EDWARD SAUNDERS')
    2342 1928 4-4-0T 10" X 15" 2' - 0" Tongaat ' MONA'
    2374 1929 4-4-0T 10" X 15" 2' - 0" Tongaat ' ISIBUTU' (also carried the name 'ROBERT ARMSTRONG')
    2471 1932 4-4-0T 10" X 15" 2' - 0" Tongaat ' WEWE'
    2479 1933 4-4-0T 10" X 15" 2' - 0" Tongaat ' TONGAAT'
    2522 1935 4-4-0T 10" X 15" 2' - 0" Tongaat ' SIMPOLA'
    2599 1939 4-4-0T 10" X 15" 2' - 0" Tongaat ' W.J.MIRRLEES'
    2627 1940 4-4-0T 10" X 15" 2' - 0" Tongaat ' A.BOULLE'
    2647 1941 4-4-0T 10" X 15" 2' - 0" Tongaat ' EDWARD SAUNDERS'
    2819 1946 4-4-0T 10" X 15" 2' - 0" Tongaat ' CHARLES WHYTOCK'
    2820 1946 4-4-0T 10" X 15" 2' - 0" Tongaat ' EGOLOMI'
    (Ref: Festipedia, WHHR and Sandstone estates websites)
    I know there are only 11 locos listed above - Festipedia and the WHHR website says there were 13 in the batch, and I assume they have looked into it in more detail than I have! The Sandstone estates website also states that "some of the Tongaat locos are known to have swopped names in later years but this may have been due to general parts swopping rather than intentional renaming"


    Mr Walton-Binns is also listed as having a further 3 locos in N.Yorks:
    Bagnalls 1495/6 and 3052 which are all 0-4-0T locos and are 2' 6" gauge.

    If my memory is correct, I also think Mr Walton-Binns either owned, or had a large shareholding in 34010 Sidmouth.

    Hope this helps


    Keith
     
  6. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Keith, had heard rumours about Graeme having 3 more engines; a friend went to visit him this last week, I'll check what the score is when I speak to him this week.

    Mr Walton-Binns has long been a proponent of industrial loco preservation too, and owns 47 aka "Moorbarrow" at Ludborough and owns/has owned several other standard gauge locos.

    Cheers
    Anthony
     
  7. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Apart from Taliesin obviously.
     
  8. narrowgauge

    narrowgauge New Member

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    It is not in the Rampton collection, it belongs to the VoR - there is a difference although it might be subtle. All the locos at Aberystwyth/Capel Bangor are owned by the VoR.
     
  9. tractionenginedriver

    tractionenginedriver New Member

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    The Wren and the locos at Capel Bangor are part of the trusts collection not VOR, What is at Capel Bangor is just a part of what the trust owns and we work on the trusts stuff aswell as just the VOR stuff
     
  10. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

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    May i ask if Capel Bangor just has the locos that were in the yard at Aberystwyth for a while, or does it house other locos from the collection? I've always presumed the larger loco's like the NG15 and NGG13 are in Surrey but it would be nice to have some confirmation.

    Chris
     
  11. Dumphrey

    Dumphrey New Member

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    The Phyllis Rampton Narrow Gauge Railway Trust – registered charity no. 292240 does not, repeat NOT, directly own any railway rolling stock and, as far as I can establish, never has!
    The latest return to the Charity Commision for the year to 31 Dec 2008 received by the Commission 29 October 2009 show that the trust has tangible fixed assets of £10,439 depreciated value, consisting of of office furniture and record and photographs. It has fixed asset investments totalling £2,469,212 including 100% holding in the Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd and £34,900 of non interest bearing loan stock. It also shows the VofR as a debtor to the total of £2,052,112.
    Under the heading Review of activities is the following statement:

    "The charity continued to make loans to the Vale of Rheidol Railway Limited for the purchase and restoration of rolling stock. The trustees are still considering converting the loan to a gift from the trust to the company. The loan stood at £2,052,112 at 31 December 2008 (£1,901,243 at 31 December 2007). The company will covenant the whole of its trading profits to the charity but only when the company’s deficits have been extinguished.
    The directors of the Vale of Rheidol Railway Limited have completed preliminary work for the new workshop. However, owing to the collapse in the value of of the trust’s investments, the trustees consider it unwise to lend the company more funds for this project.
    The directors of the Vale of Rheidol Railway Limited have, therefore, been requested to examine all the grants available to see whether any additional financial support can be provided for the new workshop. The project is likely to take 18 months to complete. When completed the trust and the company will be able to give it full attention to the proposed museum."

    The following also appear:

    "PLANS FOR THE FUTURE

    FUTURE DEVELOPMENTS
    The charity will continue to maximise returns on the investment portfolio to provide sufficient funds to meet the expenditure requirements of the Vale of Rheidol Railway Limited.

    PUBLIC BENEFIT

    Phyllis Rampton Narrow Gauge Railway Trust supports the work of the Vale of Rheidol Railway Limited. The railway operates to demonstratethe operation of a victorian narrow gauge railway for the benefit of the public.
    The Vale of Rheidol Railway Limited is open to all members of the public. The public can benefit from and see the preserved locomotives and rolling stock in operation. They are available to be viewed on open days without charge. Fare concessions are also available to travel on the railway."

    I also notice that the address of the principal office has changed slightly –

    1 Gorebridge Green Cottage
    Dunsfold Road
    Loxhill
    Godalming
    Surrey
    GU8 4BH

    And that two trustees – A C Baker and J A Brooker – have resigned. I seem to remember that the two gentlemen in question were somewhat advanced in years.

    In the return, for the Vale of Rheidol Railway Limited, is the following explanation re tangible fixed assets:

    "Locomotives and other artefacts purchased for the Railway Museum are classified as Heritage Assets and are capitalised on the Balance Sheet at cost."

    The working rolling stock is classified seperately.

    The heritage assets are shown at a value of £957,925 depreciated. There were additons of £76,625 during the year in question (2008). The working locos and rolling stock are shown at a value of £383,910 depreciated. There were additions of £17,295 during the year.

    I hope that now clarifies the situation that I outlined in a previous thread and Anthony is right and I regret that tractionenginedriver is wrong except that the trust is the ultimate owner of it all. But the heritage stock, be it at Capel Bangor or Surrey, is beneficially owned by the railway and was bought by the railway from whoever owned it in the past but not the PRNGRT.

    I am showing 41 locos as heritage stock plus 3 Isle of Man coaches and the directors saloon from Sabero colliery system, with 14 of the locos at Capel Bangor/Aberystwyth. If any one can advise me of anything different to that I would be very pleased to know. As I have previously mentioned, I have been trying to keep track of this collection, still known to me as 'Collection X', for nearly 40 years.

    Ian
     
  12. tractionenginedriver

    tractionenginedriver New Member

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    The locos at Capel Bangor are pretty much just what was at Aber in the siding a few years ago, the shed was built to protect them, and to get stuff out of Aber shed occasionally such as the tamper, the flail and the little brake van so that we have some space in the shed to work. Although that space seems to have run dry now and we cant get another carriage in to work on after this ones compleate, and to start work on another engine i.e No7 is just impossible these Rheidol tanks take up a hell of alot of space when scattered about. so when the new sheds up we're away
     
  13. deecairns

    deecairns New Member

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    Re Tongaat Sugar Bagnalls

    This is a belated response to Keith's comments on the subject dated 8th November.
    The first two 4-4-0 Bagnalls for Tongaat were 1837 of 1907, (Success') 1929 of 1910 ('Repeat') - both scrapped. Then as far as I can ascertain Keith's info is correct. If indeed it is 'Isibutu' at Statfold then the works no is 2374 of 1929. I have not been able to ascertain what happened to 'Wewe', 'WJ Mirrlees' and 'Edward Saunders'. I believe 'A Boulle' went up to a farm at Himeville as a stationary boiler but some give its current location as the UK. 'Tongaat' was donated to a playground in Durban (check to be made to ascertain if it is still there). 'Mona' is still in SA (location to be confirmed). 'Simpola' went to the USA (Bucher Estate in Texas). In addition to 'Isibutu' (and 'A Boulle'?) three other Bagnalls returned to the UK - 'Sinembe', 'Charles Whytock' and 'Egolomi' I suspect Mr Walton Binns may own these three but can anyone confirm this?
    Also can anyone clarify which of the Bagnall Meyers went to the Cripple Creek Railway in the US -i.e. 'Tugela', 'Nonoti', 'Umhlatuzi' or 'Sinkwazi'? I think the info on their website is wrong - year of manufacture certainly is.

    Regards
    David

     
  14. Avonside1563

    Avonside1563 Well-Known Member

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    I can't speak for Mr Brooker, but I think that Alan Baker might take offence at being called somewhat advanced in years as I think he is in his 60s. I stand to be corrected but he's certainly not what I would call somewhat advanced! Alan Baker and Alan Civil have recently published the ultimate book on W.G. Bagnalls of Stafford, proceeds of which have been going to the Phyllis Rampton Trust, I wonder if this is still the case... will ask Mr Civil at the weekend if he's at Foxfield.
     
  15. RGCorris

    RGCorris Member

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    A friend of mine who helps G W-B with his locos advises that they are Sinembe, Charles Whytock and A Boulle.

    Richard
     
  16. RGCorris

    RGCorris Member

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  17. deecairns

    deecairns New Member

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    Re Tongaat Bagnalls.

    Thank you Richard. Then that leaves 'Egolomi', 'Wewe', 'W J Mirrlees' and 'Edward Saunders' unaccounted for.
    Regards
    David
     
  18. narrowgauge

    narrowgauge New Member

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    The book was published by the trust with the financials handled by the VoR - there's £14,337 expenditure in the VoR accounts for 2008 but I don't think that can be the total. Income shows £26,883 for book sales which must be for pre-orders, equates to nearly 300 copies, but I don't remember it being promoted in 2008. It would have a better claim to the 'ultimate' accolade if the proof reading had been better, incidentally. You could ask Mr Civil if he's also still a trustee as I've been told by someone who should be in a position to know that 'both' authors have resigned - could be that we'll have to wait for next year's report to find out for sure.
    (Been spending some time trawling the BR files dealing with the sale of the VoR at the National Archives btw - some interesting stuff there.)
    Peter Johnson
     
  19. jamesd

    jamesd Member

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    Briging this back on topic, the Kerr Stuart just steamed past my office light engine heading out of Aberystwyth. Bit more intersting than the usual fare of 158's!
     
  20. *8A*

    *8A* New Member

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    Yes indeed - looks like it might struggle a bit with 6 up to Devil's Bridge!!
     

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