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Joy's valve gear

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by andrewshimmin, May 7, 2020.

  1. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Query on the use of Joy's valve gear on the LNWR and L&Y.

    On the LNW, I know the Cauliflowers were the first locos with Joy's valve gear. Was it then used on all locos of new classes from then on? i.e. Precedent, Precursor, Whitworth, etc., all the way up to the Claughtons, which of course had Walschaert's (as did the Tishy's)?

    On the L&Y, I think Aspinall used it on his "Peacock" 4-4-0s, and then it was used on every class (except the Railmotors?) until the rebuilt Dreadnaughts had Walschaert's?

    Thanks in advance.

    (I couldn't find the answer in my available books!)

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  2. bluetrain

    bluetrain Member

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    According to both Talbot & Tuplin, the Greater Britain, John Hick & 3-cylinder 0-8-0 classes all had Stephenson gear plus slip eccentric, in contrast to the Joy gear on the earlier Webb 2-2-2-0s. The prototype 0-8-0 No. 2524 originally had Joy gear based on the Cauliflower, and the later 4-cylinder 0-8-0s had Joy gear in line with the 4-cylinder 4-4-0s.

    Interesting that Webb continued to build different classes with Stephenson, Allan & Joy gear. He presumably saw greater advantage in keeping to a standard within each class rather than plumping exclusively for one type of valve gear. Whereas I think George Whale did exclusively use Joy on his designs.
     
  3. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    According to Barry C. Lane (Lancashire & Yorkshire Locomotives (2010) Pendragon ISBN 978 1 8998 16 17 0), W. Barton Wright tried Joy's gear on ten 6ft 4-4-0s built by Neilson's in April and May 1884, Nos. 833-842, these engines having wider bearings on the driving axle where there were no longer any eccentrics. This reduced maintenance costs sufficiently to impress John Aspinall to introduce it fully on the 978 Class 6ft 4-4-0s from July 1888.
     
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  4. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Sorry, forgot to say, the Dreadnoughts as built used Joy's gear; they didn't get Walshaerts until rebuilt with new cylinders, superheaters and a host of other much-needed improvements. The Joy's gear was inside the frames and drove the outside valves through rocking levers. The later Walschaert's gear was outside and drove the inside valves through rocking levers, this system being the basis for that used on Stanier's Coronation Pacifics.
     
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  5. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your excellent service as usual @LMS2968
    Lane is an excellent book, I don't have access to my usual library copy just now...
    Although Talbot's Illustrated History is a splendid book for the LNW locos in terms of the photos, he is a bit erratic about the technical details he gives: lots of info about small superficialities like lamp sockets and lubricators, but omits to mention valve gear for many types!
    Incidentally, is there a complete LNWR loco list available anywhere?

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  6. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Thank you.

    There are Yeadon's Compendiums (compendia?) but they're far from complete and start about 1912. The LNWR Society (https://www.lnwrs.org.uk/) often gives particulars of earlier types, but I find it a bit superficial for many details. Generally, Eddie Talbot is quite good on the later stuff but he depends on earlier and sometimes dubious sources. 'The LNWR Recalled' (1987) OPC ISBN 0-86093-392X has a lot of material from people we would now call train spotters rather than professionals, and suffer accordingly.
     
  7. std tank

    std tank Member

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    Aspinall's 0-6-0 tanks of the 1351 Class, known as the rapid shunters, were fitted with Allan valve gear. The last of the Class was 51537, withdrawn from 27B Aintree in 1961.
    Also the 0-4-0 saddle tanks, know as Pugs, were fitted with Stephensons valve gear, but they were, essentially, a copy of a Vulcan Foundry design.
     
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  8. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    All true. The 'Rapid Shunters' were very unpopular on the L&YR, and many were moved to former LNWR sheds in the 1930s - where they were very much welcomed!
     
  9. huochemi

    huochemi Well-Known Member Friend

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    "Eddie" Talbot? He is generally known to everyone, and signs off communications etc, as Ted. I will introduce you if you want to have a chat. ;)

    For those interested in Joy's valve gear. there is a series running in the Journal of the Society of Model and Experimental Engineers at the moment on radial gears, the part on Joy being in the February issue (which spills over to April for outside Joy). It is a bit (well actually quite a lot) heavy on maths, and I suspect that even among the SMEE membership few will read and digest it. I did learn however that Joy's gear is based on the Scott Russell linkage. As a worked example, the author examines the L&Y 4-4-0 and finds that the actual dimensions accord with his own analysis of a well proportioned gear.
     
  10. nickt

    nickt New Member

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    I never quite figured how Joy valve gear worked until lock-down gave me the chance to build a Meccano model. He's a 39 second video.

    I made a Bulleid one too.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
  11. huochemi

    huochemi Well-Known Member Friend

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    Very good! Now turn it upside down and you can build a Teutonic round it!
     
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  12. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Nickt,

    The vagaries and niceties of valve gears is a most complicated matter, and well done to you to get a grasp on all this from Meccano - though this must be at a most superficial level?

    Sadly, my old dear friend Don Ashton of UK valve gear fame died last month due to corona virus in a Manchester Hospital whilst recovering from something else.

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
  13. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    What awful news about Don Ashton. My condolences.

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  14. nickt

    nickt New Member

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    Yes, of course the models are simplified, but it's far easier to grasp what a valve gear does from a moving model than an engineering drawing. This is particularly the case with Joy gear as it was relatively rare and almost always between the frames. In contrast Walschaert's can be seen and understood by many locos still in action (lock-down excluded!). I am sorry to hear than Don Ashton has passed away; his website is a masterpiece: http://www.donashton.co.uk/index.html
     
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  15. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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    I am sorry to hear about Don Ashton. Will his website continue to be maintained? The reason why I ask is that my Great Grandfathers obituary was on Waterguard.Org = and fascinating reading. Sadly however the site has vanished.
     
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  16. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    Try https://lists.rootsweb.com/hyperkitty/list/hm-customs-waterguard@rootsweb.com/thread/22817977/
    and from there
    https://www.webarchive.org.uk/en/ukwa/search?text=http://www.hm-waterguard.org.uk/&search_location=full_text&reset_filters=false&content_type=Web+Page
     
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  17. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    In the short term yes, I look after it. In the medium term it will be down to his executors to tell me what they want done.
     
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  18. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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  19. bluetrain

    bluetrain Member

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    Well done with your model-making skills - a lot more advanced than anything that I ever managed with Meccano!

    I believe that the Lynton & Barnstaple engine "Lyd" (aka No. 190 or 30190) has outside Joy valve gear. So if there are any videos with close-up views of the gear in motion, they may be instructive.

    There was at least one area where outside Joy valve gear was once commonplace - Tsarist Russia. It was used on a number of standard types, including earlier members of the prolific O-class 0-8-0. See the fourth picture ("No 100") in the gallery on this web page:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_locomotive_class_O
     
  20. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Outside Joy's gear was also used on many of Frank Webb's Compounds, although the layout is very much hidden so not too instructive, even you found movie footage of a Compound in action!
     
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