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Jacobite 2024

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by alastair, Nov 29, 2023.

  1. JBTEvans

    JBTEvans Part of the furniture

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    I would agree on tours that are travelling at 75mph on mainlines with trains going by 100-125mph all over the place, but there isn't so much of a need on a train timed at most to do 45mph, and I would think usually much less than this, sadly I never got a chance to experience the trip last July. The WHL and operation of The Jacobite has more in common with heritage railways than the majority of rail tours.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2024
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  2. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I disagree with your view on CDL on journeys like the Jacobite, but (a) defer to your experience as a steward and (b) regard it as a judgment call.
     
  3. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    What's the position re CDL and the NYMR trains to Whitby?
     
  4. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I agree, but when's the most dangerous part of the journey? At the station. Generally passengers don't fall out of the doors at speed. They do try and open doors when the train is arriving, or try and join when the train is pulling out of the platform. I might be wildly out but I'd say WCRC had at least 3 instances of the rules not being followed on the Jacobite last summer - first reported by a whistle blower, then two subsequent ORR inspections.

    99% of the passengers on there aren't enthusiasts. I wouldn't be surprised if a good percentage of them have never travelled by train before, let alone steam, and the ones who have are used to power operated doors. It's obvious that ORR don't trust WCRC enough to keep the passengers safe without CDL.
     
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  5. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    To put it into context, by far the most hazardous part is the car journey to get to the station!
     
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  6. jonathonag

    jonathonag Well-Known Member

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    As @5944 alludes to, we need to think of the occasions where the doors are thought of as naturally intended to be opened (at platforms), rather than just on the move.

    Bear in mind that for two of the platforms that the Jacobite currently stops at, neither Glenfinnan nor Mallaig platforms have the capacity to have all doors on the platform. While I find it unlikely that the requirement for CDL is going as far as enforcing Selective Door Operation to be implimented, having just a basic CDL fitment allows time for stewards/guards to check that those doors not on the platform are manned before the whole system is 'released' and doors can open.
     
  7. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    I believe they are in the process of fitting CDL (a magnetic based system IIRC) and controlled emission toilets to the coaches which are registered for use on the National Rail network.
     
  8. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I’ve thought about that and not having selective door opening could be dangerous. For passengers seeing the doors are unlocked could give them the a false sense of security that all safe to detrain.
     
  9. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    The ORR is not a parasite.

    You and people of your ilk simply cannot get your head round the fact that we value human life (and indeed the quality of that life) more than we did in the past - and are the real problem, not the ORR!.

    The ORR is there to ensure people end up going home to their loved ones intact after their visit by ensuring standards get tighter and companies take their responsibilities seriously

    Heritage railways are not immune to this - if a parent hadn't been so quick whited than their young child would have been maimed / killed by this assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a718fd5e5274a57dcab96c3/180130_R022018_South_Devon_Railway.pdf

    Then there was a guard on the NYMR .... Report 23/2012: Fatal accident at Grosmont - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

    Or track workers on the ELR... Report 18/2018: Runaway hand trolley at Ramsbottom - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

    Historically the railways have been very good at killing people - and doors which are not secured whilst vehicles in motion have killed people when they have opened unexpectedly

    The ORR made it Crystal clear years ago that CDL would be mandatory for all national rail operations and gave charter operators over 10 years notice of their intent - and around 5 years ago made it clear no further exemptions would be approved.

    WCR knew this - and yet did nothing other than winge and moan. Other charter companies meanwhile got on with making plans and seeking solutions.....

    Finally I take a extremely dim view of any company which has been found not once, but twice to not be in compliance with the method of operation that it has specifically agreed to implement and has to be forced to suspend operations to enforce compliance!P/KB/14062023 West Coast Railway Company Ltd prohibition notice (windows.net) If they can't get something this simple what about more fundamental matters....
     
  10. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I would "like" this - and agree with large chunks of it - but disagree with the highlighted part of your statement that "The ORR is there to ensure people end up going home to their loved ones intact after their visit by ensuring standards get tighter and companies take their responsibilities seriously". Tightening standards may well be necessary, but it needs to be done in a way that is (a) effective and (b) proportionate to the level of risk.

    Too many RAIB reports have not required tightening standards, but simply observing the ones that existed. Others - I'd suggest that at Grosmont in 2012 and the one at Loughborough last year, not to mention many on the "big railway" - are not about the need to tighten standards at all, but gaps in those railways' understanding of risk - meaning that existing safeguards weren't being applied effectively.
     
  11. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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  12. jonathonag

    jonathonag Well-Known Member

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    Hence, as said above, I imagine there will remain a need for on train stewards. But there will likely be an arrangement between Guard and Stewards to confirm that the doors, that are off platform, are manned before the CDL is released.
     
  13. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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  14. NathanP

    NathanP Member

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    I would suspect that is not a local, rather someone with a connection to WCR who is doing it to try and add weight to their argument.
     
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  15. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    I suspect you may be right, the language is not that of Joe Public & not even the local media get all the exact terminology right!
     
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  16. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    It's very demeaning to Scots in general to say that the language is not that of Joe Public.
     
  17. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I think that as far as the Jacobite is concerned in particular - children, foreign visitors etc - the job of a train steward is definitely not a sinecure, CDL or not. That makes it tricky to see who might wish to do it.
     
  18. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    ??
     
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  19. Groks212

    Groks212 Well-Known Member

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    The West Coasts track access contract for Fort William - Mallaig expires in October. Given their current attitude I wonder if that might affect their chance of it being renewed.

    Track access contract between Network Rail Infrastructure Limited and West Coast Railway Company Limited

    1. On 19 May 2020 the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) directed Network Rail Infrastructure Limited (Network Rail) and West Coast Railway Company Limited (WCRC), (jointly the parties), under section 18 of the Railways Act 1993, to enter into a Track Access Contract, enclosed with the directions, by no later than 29 May 2020. This letter explains our decision.

    Background.

    2. The contract will provide WCRC with firm rights to operate a steam charter service from Fort William to Mallaig and return. It will be effective from 1 June 2020 and expire on 31 October 2024. From 1 April to 31 October each year the contract allows for 1 service in each direction per day, and within that, 2 services per day between 1 May and 30 September. For parts of the year when services are not running, the services are removed from the working timetable and that capacity is available for the use of other operators.


    Dave B
     
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  20. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    CET have already been fitted. I’m unaware of any plan to fit CDL. They have an exemption but it limits speed to 25mph; not really significant when line speed is only 30mph.
     
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