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Jacobite 2024

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by alastair, Nov 29, 2023.

  1. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    And why should they?
     
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  2. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    I challenge anyone not to disagree with that statement from the ORR. I agree, it is suprisingly frank, honest and plays the West Coast statement with a straight bat.
     
  3. Chris86

    Chris86 Well-Known Member

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    Thats precisely what.

    They don't have to explain anything beyond what has been issued.
     
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  4. Romsey

    Romsey Part of the furniture

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    I think that I related the Euronight services over the West of England line. The stock had been exported to Canada and the paths were still in the WTT.
    Us naughty freight timers just used to say "Pathway Not Available" and ise the paths for whatever we needed.

    Cheers, Neil
     
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  5. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Much freight between Fort William and Mall'ig these days ?
     
  6. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

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    A bit via the A830; by rail, nothing for about 35 years.
     
  7. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    David Smith said in an interview in Trackside that the Jacobite with Mk2's and a diesel does not stack up.
     
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  8. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Which one would assume explain why it has just been shuttered with immediate effect rather than plodded along until Mk1's were sorted - if there is any plan for Mk1's to be CDL fitted - certain media reports suggest that it was already underway, but who knows.
     
  9. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    post abandoned
    Edit: Above deleted as it related to a different post, not this one. I don't know why it appeared here.
    Ian Riley's black 5s could provide the traction, but you also need compliant (or temporarily exempt) coaches and a licensed train operating company. Someone such as Rail Adventure who worked the Master Cutler on 15 March could perhaps run RTC's tours, but that would be with diesel traction.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2024
  10. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Agree. There’s already been one tour cancelled as an indirect consequence


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  11. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    The Jacobite with a diesel at the back restricts it to six coaches, that’s a big loss of passengers and it’s often said that the profit is in the last coach.
    We have all forgotten that since the court case WCR have been talking to the ORR and the result is an additional exemption application. I can’t see any point in doing that unless the ORR had indicated that it would be successful. What needs to happen now is for them to get on with it for the good of the innocent parties in all this, the tourist economy of Lochaber and the passengers, many of whom come from overseas.
    My fear is it won’t end here, the ORR is a parasite organisation reliant of churning out regulations continuously. They will no doubt invent more safety issues in the future and we are in danger of the whole mainline steam business being regulated out of existence. They are already poking their nose into the affairs of heritage rail.
     
  12. Sam 60103

    Sam 60103 Member

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    With the current Mk2s I would expect Ian Riley’s black 5s to feature prominently in the upcoming Great Britain.
     
  13. steam_mad

    steam_mad Member

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    In times of fire risk the Jacobite regularly works with steam + 7 coaches + diesel on the rear, so we can only assume that the decision not to use CDL Mk2s and an ETH 47 is a business rather than practical decision.
     
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  14. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    The Jacobite has run with a diesel quite regularly during high fire risk, another solution would be a generator coach and others have mooted solutions that would require neither, again had this been planned for several years ago and tested, we wouldn't have a mad rush now.
    Another exemption is always a possibility, but the latest one went in on the 8th March, leaving no time for consideration ahead of planned services starting next week, again on what basis have West Coast been selling tickets? I see plenty of arguments on here that railtours are not run as advertised, here we have a product being sold that appears to have had little chance of running!
    We all need West Coast to be reaching an agreement with the ORR, but that looks a long way off. The ORR have worked well with other operators and reached agreements with them amicably, without disruption to their businesses. Treating the ORR as the enemy and blaming the cancellation of innocent people's days out on them (as they did in their press release this week), isn't a good look.
    Lastly, if the Heritage Railway industry as a whole had a perfect safety record then the ORR would have no reason to get involved. But unfortunately there have been too many incidents, with people hurt & some serious near misses - the industry as a whole does need to improve & is rightly in the spotlight. Starting by following existing rules and regulations would be a good start, but West Coast couldn't even manage that last year.
    Personally as a frequent user of heritage transport I am pleased someone is checking that it is being operated safely, because it could be extremely dangerous if it wasn't.
     
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  15. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Six plus a diesel is the maximum for passing the service train at Glenfinnan
     
  16. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

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    It's not, plenty of photos showing Black 5 + 7 Mk1s + 37. It used to be the case that the Jacobite arrived at Glenfinnan, then the unit pulled into the other platform, followed by the Jacobite moving forward to clear the points at the rear to allow the service train to depart.

    Regarding the ORR overreacting with regards safety, I think they're correct insisting on central door locking. 99.9% of mainline services now have automatic doors, the only one that doesn't is the Night Riviera to Penzance. I used to steward on railtours, one of the reasons I gave up was stewards were responsible for the door locks. Much better for the guard to control when the doors are locked and unlocked than volunteer stewards. I do enough safety critical work for my day job, I don't want any extra at the weekends.
     
  17. jonathonag

    jonathonag Well-Known Member

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    Not quite John.

    The morning train has been 7 coaches for over a decade now, and remains so when a diesel needs to be involved for fire risk reasons (Thus making it Steam - Load 7 - Diesel on Rear). Passing a regular ScotRail train at Glenfinnan is not an issue, as currently, the steam enters and fouls the East end of the loop. Once the ScotRail train enters from the West, the steam gains the token and proceeds to draw forward and foul the West end points, releasing the East end points and token which allows the ScotRail train to continue.
    The afternoon train, due to needing to cross the morning Jacobite at Glenfinnan, the above shunt couldn't take place with Load 7 as both trains would foul at the rear. This is why, during fire risk, the afternoon train would go out as diesel only. There was no conceivable physical space to allow both steam and diesel on both trains, so it was either remove a coach from the afternoon or remove the Black 5. This kept the afternoon train restricted to 6 coaches.

    Last year however, the afternoon train was retimed to be earlier, allowing for both steam hauled trains to now pass at Arisaig, the loop comfortably fitting both trains and allowed the afternoon train to increase to load 7. There is also enough space for a diesel to be on both trains simultaneously with this set of timings.

    It is why, on Saturdays, the afternoon Jacobite is booked a pause only 5 minutes into the journey at Fort William Jnc. The train is now too long to pass the WTT pathed Royal Scotsman at Glenfinnan, and thus is booked to pass at the Junction. If the Royal Scotsman is not running that Saturday however, the steam hauled train proceeds unhindered to Glenfinnan and then awaits booked time there.
     
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  18. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I’m surprised they allow the service train to run into the platform with the rear of the Jacobite fouling the point at the east end of the station. Had that always been the case?
     
  19. jonathonag

    jonathonag Well-Known Member

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    I don't recall the rear of the train actually being across the frogs of the points, but it is beyond what would be regarded as the fouling marker of the points*

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/60956647@N02/48595357472

    This photograph from John Gray, taken in 2019 when the trains passed at Glenfinnan, handily shows why the afternoon train was restricted in length. If you consider where 7 coaches would be on the adjacent line to the Eastbound departing train, it demonstrates how close it actually is.

    Edit - I should also add, it's been a fair few years since I've actually watched the trains and manouvres at Glenfinnan station. I tend to be up a hill somewhere for the next shot by that point...

    *At a guess, this is the RETB board at the East End.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2024
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  20. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I am amazed that you believe the above. Consider this.

    A regulator sets out rules and guidelines appropriate for the time - that's one of its jobs - in the expectation that those organisations that are affected will respond in a timely manner. It will note those organisations that toe the line together with those that fall foul of the regulatory system and the frequency with which that happens.

    This Jacobite business seems to illustrate a significant enterprise that is struggling to meet changed circumstances. It matters that each party trusts the other one. You get a sense that there is a fault line somewhere at present.
     
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