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Issue 112 - Wilcock's Thin Red Line article on 4 A4s line up

Discussion in 'Heritage Railway' started by Mike30A, Jun 3, 2008.

  1. Mike30A

    Mike30A New Member

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    Whilst totally agreeing that the NRM should not be charging £32.50 for this event, it does seem rather foolish to criticise them for staging the line up at the worst possible time of day from a photographic standpoint; when clearly this has to be linked to the arrival of one A4 on the "Coronation" tour and the onward journey north of the border.

    (perhaps someone could digitally enhance a shot of the 3 A4s at the NYMR with the addition of Mallard and publish that - ok, puts on tin hat and runs for cover)
     
  2. 61624

    61624 Well-Known Member

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    I find it hrd to understand the mentality of all those photographers who turn up to take exactly the same picture. Wait a little while and for a few pence I'm sure the NRM will produce a high quaity postcard!
     
  3. ipod

    ipod New Member

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    Sounds like another classic performance in the HR pantomime.... 8-[
     
  4. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman New Member

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    I found it interesting that Andrew Scott was the chosen target for this...

    I'm not convinced that the event and certainly the charges for it are anything to do with him. At the same time, whether he agrees or not, he is hardly going to to say different to the party line when answering on behalf of the museum.... I think David expected too much if he thought he was going to get what he wanted to hear out of him.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest New Member Account Suspended

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    Much as I admire Andrew Scott, and have had differences with David Wilcock, the fact is that Andrew is head honcho at the NRM and holds the reins.

    Therefore when a silly, silly, decision such as the fleecing of enthusiasts at £32.50 plus booking fee to see four A4s together is taken by a taxpayer funded heritage body, then he had better have a very thick skin, because I and many others will set about frying him in oil!

    A proper price would have been around a third to half of that - and as for a booking fee - to another taxpayer funded museum in Bradford - what's that about?

    No-one else has commented on the ROFL £117.50 for a half bottle of wine and a centrally par cooked meal in the Great Hall - subject to exclusion clauses - well he deserves everything he gets for accepting that as a proposition!

    I personally think that the NRM has set a new low in preservation with this following on the lack of 1968 in the just closed exhibition in the museum yard.

    Time to sharpen up the act chaps!
     
  6. John Elliot Jnr

    John Elliot Jnr New Member

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    Perhaps desperately underfunded museums need to turn to increasingly desperate measures in order to survive. As a senior national museum director Andrew Scott needs no lectures about what museums are for or about the dangers of alienating core audiences like us. He knows better than we do that museums are about equal access for all, not exclusivity and restricted access. However, until the government is in a position to fund its museums to a level that adequately offsets the true costs of free admission, my fear is that we should expect more of the same.
     
  7. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    whilst I accept that all museums have a funding requirement it's about balance and on this occasion the balance is way off beam.

    the talk is of people having the space to take their pictures , but did you notice how many people there were potentially - 1500 1100 tickets and 400 off the tour.

    What if it runs late , fire risk , loco failure . There is a very big risk being taken for £30k and a lot of disgruntled visitors.

    I thought David's article was actually well written and provocative which surely is what journalism is all about.
     
  8. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Why snipe at the NRM for simply following through with the unstated logic of those complaining ?

    Problem : Photographers curse at the mass of people walking in front of locos thus reducing photo opportunities. Solution - increase opportunities by decreasing mass of people.

    Problem : How to reduce mass of people. Solution - encourage those willing to pay for privelege and discourage those seeking free ride; the higher the charge the greater the discouragement.

    Those of us who have paid for the privelege of phjotographing the A4s now have a justifiable right to seek both access and privelege leaving the NRM to have some return for the time and effort involved in setting up and staffing the event for the restricted periods over the 2 days.

    I may be letting my heart rule my head over this event but there are some things ( i.e. photographic opportunities ) that cannot be quantified in simple money terms; for me this is one where I accept it may be overpriced but in order to photograph it I accept the price being charged.

    Are those complaining at the charge simply complaining at the principle of charging - or accept the principle but are complaining at the level of charge - or simply want a freebie because they have never had to pay before ?
     
  9. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    Fred

    1 the problem of stopping people walking in front of the engine is simple it's called a cordon and doesn't cost £32.50 per head to organise

    2 If you think you can get a good picture with 1499 others then I admire your optimism , but having seen a gallery of 60 at work ! or the price may put so many people off you'll get your shot

    3 It becomes the thin end of the wedge , we move from it being for the masses to an elitist pursuit. Are we happy for this as I'm not

    4 have you asked yourself why a charter organiser was turned away ?
     
  10. Silverlink60014

    Silverlink60014 New Member

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    So the nrm are charging £32.50 for the event there are likely to be huge costs of bringing in the locos to start with. museums have to make money from somewhere as the entry is normally free.

    I have had many arguements with people who claim enthusiasts don't pay, now i can see what they mean. this doesn't apply to all enthusiasts but many people will happily pay to see the line up of A4s seen as though Mallard will see daylight.

    If you want something for nothing don't go.

    For all you know the money could be going towards the restoration of that famous basketcase known as flying scotsman.
     
  11. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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  12. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    I accept your points, Sidmouth, but as a charter organiser you are aware that there must always be a balance between costs and charges as well as between numbers attending which influences the final prices you charge.

    I acknowledge that, in both your experience and opinion, the NRM has got the pricing and numbers wrong hence the critical comments from both you and others with similar experience; unfortunately - as in the case with photo charters - I have to decide whether I will pay the price for what's on offer and whilst equally critical of the charging regime I am also an A4 fanatic to the point that I am prepared to accept the charge for this event.

    That said I am also tied to a fixed (pensioner's) budget therefore elected not to pay the excessive price of the "1968 and all that" exhibition as I felt the same comments from above also applied and my interest in the exhibits wasn't as great asto spend the entrance fee.

    I feel that my action in paying for what I wanted and not spending on other exhibitions on the grounds that the high cost wasn't justified for me considering what was on offer will doubtless be reflected by others who also have fixed incomes to live on.

    Perhaps these comments might be noted by the NRM and a response from Anthony Coulis by way of explanation would certainly be welcome.
     
  13. MikeParkin65

    MikeParkin65 Member Friend

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    Don't the NRM normally charge loco owners\rail tour operators for using thier facilities?
     
  14. michaelh

    michaelh Well-Known Member

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    I went to the Stubbs Exhibition at The National Gallery which was also excellent - and that cost me £8.50
     
  15. Guest

    Guest New Member Account Suspended

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    Fred and others - the facts of the NRM piggybacking on an already paid for gathering of locos has already been fully set out above

    At MOSI we currently have the "Body Works" exhibition, £10 - £11.50 a head with reduced rate concessions and family tickets

    This is price gouging of the worst sort and in my view reflects terribly on the long term reputation of the NRM. We all know how all public bodies squeal about their settlements - but they are still public bodies with wider responsibilities than just the fare box, especially museums! This is not Formula One

    If you read the PR puffery that goes with the ticket offer you can see how they try to flesh it out to suggest that you are getting more than is actually on offer.

    As an A4 fanatic too, I take this kind of yield led thinking as an assault on my wallet pure and simple. The Mrs likes A4s too - £68 26 to walk round a compound - Is someone having a larf?

    It comes down to a matter of choice - and that £68.26 pays for well over half of an evening for two with Carlos Santana in ten days time, or one and a half tickets to the Americana from the 11th to the 14th July - four days of pure entertainment - but not the beer, or one and a half Cotton Spinner tickets . No contest!

    We aren't looking for something for nothing - we pay our way - by God we do - but we aren't going to roll over in the face of over charging of this sort
     
  16. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    But the choices reflect your interests and whilst these are more "value for money" than the NRM A4 event at least you have had an opportunity to select not to go - as I have selected the opportunity to go. Admittedly I will take the chance on the day to do other things since I will be in the area and which I would have had to make a special visit to the area from Southport to do at any other time.
    It may well be a rip-off in many ways but the fact that for this one-off event there is a limit and that it will be enforced - in part - by the pricing policy means I now choose whether to join or not. Forget the fact that I could attend a gig by some rock star at an excessive figure or pay £50:00 to watch a Premier League match lasting 2 hours ( including half-time ) sharing the joys of the beautiful game with another 30,000+ sweaty and noisy fans surrounded by the stench of burger bars, alcohal and stale urine but doubtless considered worth the expenditure by those who do it regularly; there is an event being run at a price and the simple question to be answered is "Do I consider the price worth paying ?".

    I come back to the basic point which the NRM has obviously identified; how much is 4 A4s worth and if enough people consider it value for money their pricing decision will be justified else if enough people consider it a rip-off and do not attend then the critics' opinion is justified.

    And the whole situation beggars the question posed in my earlier posting but not directly answered by anyone to date - Are those complaining at the charge simply complaining at the principle of charging - or accept the principle but are complaining at the level of charge - or simply want a freebie because they have never had to pay before ?
     
  17. 4472

    4472 New Member

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    Re: the £32.50 charge. Yes possibly a little steep but just imagine the scenario if it were free. There would be chaos. No where to park because all carparks full, fights breaking out because photographers could not get a clear shot due to little Jimmy being photoed by the side of the locos, a health and safety nightmare.

    The NRM by charging and making it steep have introduced a natural filter which will ensure the hoards do not desend on York and neither will their children. Surely a bonus for genuine photographers.
     
  18. beetlejuice

    beetlejuice New Member

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    Yes but extremmly discriminatory against those on limited incomes. I wouldn't mind paying 20 quid or maybe even 25 as I have said before. But as me and others have say this seems to be elitest in the extreme for basically 3 locos in steam and one not. I am also one of many on here that have no income except what my lovely parents give me- they also can't afford it.

    I haven't even left school yet(17), in the eyes of the law am still technically a child yet to come to event such as this would have to pay the full price.

    I realise the NRM need to make some money some how but they have no need to discriminate against anyone on limited incomes....

    Oh and if anyone wants a comparioson the last time I spent that kind of money was for a gig in London. It was exactly the same price and I got about 5 hours entertainment out of that....Welll acctually no I still think it was the best gig I've been to and I can still remeber most of it. A picture line up of the A4's tbh even if I took a picture from every single angle possible wouldn't last me 2 hours even having to avoid the crowds from earlier. I would have thought it more economical then to make it £10 cheaper or simmilar so that everyone has an opportunity and then have a seperate photo charter style day. Then those like me that are pretty bad at taking photos have the opportunity of seeing them without losing all my money for the next month or so and those that want professional pictures or the decent quality pictures can pay more.

    This would therefore mean less would be there so better chance of a decent photo....or could this not be done? Not even as a night shot?
     
  19. ipod

    ipod New Member

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    The thing is if you really wanted to see that line-up, you would do… instead of whinging because you think it is a tad expensive.
    With respect, you are old enough to earn money in your own right, the choice is yours, continue to expect everything to be handed to you on a plate by us taxpayers.... or get off your backside and earn some money to do the things you enjoy…. Its all part of life and the reality of the real world.

    A concession for senior citizens would have been a nice idea …. Considering that most of them have probably paid taxes all their lives, but still have to fork out the full amount for events such as this.
     
  20. beetlejuice

    beetlejuice New Member

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    I take your point, it is true but I still believe in my opinion that my opinion and my right to winge are pefectly acceptable. The taxpayers point though....well I personally have weighed up wether to stay in education or not and decided to stay in order to try and get more qualifications and therefore maybe get a "better" job. Once I have a job I will be paying taxes as you are doing. In some ways I could say I'm paying taxes when I work in the summer for the local Windsurfing school. There is no way that I pay the same amount as others but I still contribute. I would also like to point out that nearly every time I go to the NRM I contribute in some form, the same as I do at any other railway if I have the change.

    I have to ask though what would you think if you were in the same position to me?? I realise its all part of life but I don't expect them to change it, I like to winge or gripe about something that really does get to me! I just think that this on the whole seems a bit poorly thought out but thats my opinoin.

    I'm still in some ways tempted to go but as I said I don't feel its value for money and certainnly looking at some of the other things the NRM appear to be doing don't seem to be in the nature of a museum but I'm not going to carry on about that.

    I'm not just saying that I personnelly shouldn't have to pay as much or anyone in a simillar position, I just think it seems grossly miscalulated for all.

    The senior citizens idea in some ways I agree with but in others disagree. You and anyone else are probably be going to be taxed your whole life as well, surely you should be offered a discretion on the same principle that you'll be paying taxes all your life, this is likely to be a one off event and you'd have to pay the full amount. It is true though that as a whole it would affect them more at this time, but I could say that for myself(though that would be a tad self centred).

    Hopefully you will understand my point as well, I don't know if I can express it anymore clearly. Each to thier own could be the case.
     

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