If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Isle Of Man Steam Railway

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by David Bigcheeseplant, Jun 11, 2016.

  1. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    3,281
    Likes Received:
    3,211
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Anyone, please? ..... What's the state of play with Mannin? I thought I heard a rumble that this sacred cow might just be touched.
     
  2. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Messages:
    749
    Likes Received:
    277
    It is. Be interesting to see how she fits into the modern railway.
     
  3. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    875
    Location:
    i.o.m
    As of today Mannin is still in the Port Erin Museum. At the moment I have no information as to when she will be moved. To do this the Royal Saloon and No6 Peveril will have to be moved out via the engine shed and that is straightforward. No 16 will then have to be jacked sideways and removed, again, through the engine shed. The whole process will then have to be reversed to put No1 in the place vacated by No16 but, as yet, its cosmetic restoration is still underway. The railway, and the Museum, re-open on Friday 8th March.
    Ray.
     
    paullad1984 and 30854 like this.
  4. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    875
    Location:
    i.o.m
    Mannin was designed for the heavy 'boat' trains on the heavily graded Port Erin Line and is considerably larger than previous designs. She/he has a tractive effort of 8,810lbs as against 6,580lbs of the 10-13 series and almost double that of the 'small' Beyers. There is no doubt that Mannin will be most useful for the heavy diner trains but the loco is well worn having been on light duties even before it was withdrawn in 1963 and still has its original 1926 boiler whereas some of the others are on their 4th. The downside is that No16 is unique and very few of its components are interchangeable with the rest of the fleet. Until the arrival of 'The Cabbage' Mannin and 'big brake' F49 were the last new pieces of rolling stock supplied to the IMR (in 1926).
    Ray.
    IMR No16 Mannin new in 1926.jpg
     
  5. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    3,281
    Likes Received:
    3,211
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Having long thought Mannin was regarded as 'untouchable', I'm curious to know the likely extent of repairs to get the loco back into steam. IIRC, the inner firebox is none too healthy, but is the boiler barrel itself salvageable ..... and is the loco still asbestos-ridden? If so, does any remedial action liable to have any bearing on the current state of play with either Mona or Douglas?
     
  6. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2013
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    295
    Occupation:
    Boilermaker
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The trouble with the Manx Beyer Peacock boilers (certainly on the smaller engines, I suspect Mannin is the same) is that getting the inner fireboxes out of them is a total cow as they don't fit through the outer shell unless one removes either the backhead or barrel / throatplate.

    Ultimately this means that the cost of replacing an inner box (and fixing all the stuff that's probably them found to be wrong with the shell) is close to the cost of building a new boiler - I believe this is why there is currently a major program occurring to build 5 new boilers for the fleet, rather than attempt life extensions overhauls on the existing boilers.

    If, as I suspect, Mannin is bigger boilered than the "regular" locos, I don't think the current boiler programme includes a new boiler for her - but that doesn't mean that there aren't other plans afoot. If her boiler is very different to the others (i.e. it uses different sized pressings) it may be more cost effective to repair, than replace (I think this is also why Caledonia's boiler was repaired rather than replaced).
     
  7. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Messages:
    749
    Likes Received:
    277
    Her boiler is certainly larger.
     
  8. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    875
    Location:
    i.o.m
    Mannin's boiler is 3'6" dia and pressed to 180psi against 3'3" and 160psi of the 10-13 series. The small boilers are 2'10" dia. I'd have to check but I thought one of the 5 new boilers may have been 3'6". You may remember that, for a while, Nos 11 & 12 (in its square cab/blue period) ran with 3'6" Israel Newton built boilers one of which lay in Port St.Mary goods shed until recently.
    As regards Mannin's condition it was thoroughly worn out when withdrawn at the end of the 1963 season, still with her original boiler. For some years previously it had been laid up in the off season and latterly was restricted to light trains on the fairly level Peel Line. When No16's restoration was first proposed we suggested jacking up the whistle and placing a new engine underneath. However, the decision has been made and I am sure that Mannin will be most useful for the heaviest trains and add a bit of variety to the fleet.
    Nos 5,6,9 & 16 all retain their asbestos lagging. It would be nice to think that the opportunity will be taken to do the the other 3 at the same time as Mannin. Hope this answers your questions.
    Ray.
     
  9. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2013
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    295
    Occupation:
    Boilermaker
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That answers several questions I'd wondered about for a while, not least why we (I work for Newtons) have a set of press tooling in our collection for what looks like the IoM boilers, but which was too large for the current batch of boilers (all of which are on 3' 3" barrels)

    It does at least mean that the tooling for a new boiler for Mannin does exist, should one ever be wanted...
     
    Kempenfelt 82e and marshall5 like this.
  10. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    3,281
    Likes Received:
    3,211
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Now that gave me a good laugh! Thanks Ray. :) Fingers crossed for the others, asbestos wise, eh?
     
  11. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    1,328
    Likes Received:
    559
    Out of interest why is No.1 selected for display when, presumably, it only needs a boiler and a bit of tinkering to get it running again (OK this must be over simplifying, but it has run relatively recently). Why not put one of the other asbestos-ridden stored locos in the museum instead?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    585
    From reading articles published in the railway press in the past (which, admittedly, may or may not be accurate!) I got the impression that Sutherland was also very tired when she was brought out of retirement in 1998, and that really only a bare minimum of work was done to get her through the three years that Fenella's boiler was on loan to her. So she may, in fact, need more work doing to her than one might think.

    I have to say I was a little surprised by the news about Mannin not least because the IMR surely has more than enough working engines already? I take it there has been no word whether something else will be retired to make way for her?
     
  13. jma1009

    jma1009 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    516
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    Hi Ray,

    I must say I am rather excited that Mannin might return to steam!

    Will there be an appeal? I am sure it would receive a lot of support.

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
  14. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    875
    Location:
    i.o.m
    If I remember correctly the Director of Transport suggested that only one small boilered loco (currently No8) was required for current traffic levels. No1 would have needed a full overhaul not just a new boiler. In view of the limited budget there would be a better return from buying a new 3'3" boiler. I could be wrong but "recently" was the best part of 20 yrs ago. The photo below shows Sutherland on display in Peel in 1998. No1 has been dismantled for many years and, in view of its historical significance, a cosmetic restoration and display is the next best thing to full restoration. I haven't heard of any plans to withdraw a loco permanently but rather have a rolling programme of overhauls for which the 5 new boilers are a part.
    Ray.
    a03 No 1 at Peel 1998 a.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  15. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    875
    Location:
    i.o.m
    Hi Julian,
    As far as I know there will be no appeal for No 16 as it will be funded from the IMR's share of the public transport budget. If people want to help could I suggest buying a ticket or an item from the railway shop - online if you can't get over to see us in person. If any Nat.Pres members plan on coming over, particularly for Rush Hour or the HTF I'll be one of the guides for the shed/workshop tours. Advance booking for these is advised as they usually sell out. Thanks for your interest.
    Ray.
     
  16. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    875
    Location:
    i.o.m
    That's interesting. The 3'6" Israel Newton boilers were the first new ones since Lord Ailsa purchased a couple of 3'3" ones from Hunslet in 1969. These went on Nos 4 & 13. When the, now Gov't owned, IMR wanted to replace the boilers on 11 & 12 somebody told them that the ligaments between the tubeholes on the Hunslet boilers didn't now comply so, in order to keep the same number of tubes (and heating surface), the diameter of the boiler had to be increased to 3'6" - hence your flanging plates. The safety valves were set much further forward on these boilers, IIRC, due to the positions of the crown stays. Quite a lot of trimming of the tanks and cab was required to fit these boilers which is one reason why No12 ended up with the 'biscuit box' cab. Thankfully, when the locos were next reboilered they reverted back to their previous appearance.
    Ray.
    No 12 and runner Castletown fall 1986.jpg
     
    Kempenfelt 82e likes this.
  17. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    1,328
    Likes Received:
    559
    You're not wrong, my (so far) only visit to the IoM was in about 2000 and I guess that must have been not long before the boiler was swapped back onto No.8. It doesn't seem that long ago, where has the time gone??!
    As a strategy that makes sense if that's what the traffic need is. I think where I was coming from though is that if, say, No.9 had been spruced up for display instead, it would have made a return for No.1 in the medium term a bit more likely, and since No.1 is probably still a better prospect for revival than No.9 I wondered if that may have been a better option. (I presume 9 & 5 are still coccooned in the back of the shed?)

    What you really need is to reopen the Peel line, that would give the smaller locos more of a purpose! (What I would like you to do is reopen the Manx Northern, but clearly that's in cloud cuckoo land).
     
  18. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    875
    Location:
    i.o.m
    "Where does the time go?" Tell me about it - my better half tells me off for saying "Just the other week" when it was at least a year ago? I agree that No9, as the loco in the nearest to original condition, would have been a very worthy candidate for the museum if No 1 was to be restored to working order but it is what it is and we have to get the best value for the tax payers who, at the end of the day, are paying for this. I'm sure if some benevolent billionaire wanted to bankroll it then nothing is impossible including the Peel line but I don't see it happening in my lifetime. The IoM railways are very different to those in the U.K. in that they are not really 'preserved', they are part of a nationalized transport system and largely still doing the job they have always done but now subsidized by Treasury. We do not qualify for EU or National Lottery funds. If you were to revisit us now I think you'd (mostly) be pleasantly surprised.
    Cheers,
    Ray.
     
    Bluenosejohn likes this.
  19. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    875
    Location:
    i.o.m
    The Steam Railway's 2019 season commenced last Friday with locos #8 Fenella and MNR #4 Caledonia in service. Currently we are operating timetable R which is a 2 train operation (daily,Tu/WX until 4/4). The first major event of the season is Rush Hour on the Railways over Easter https://www.gov.im/media/1364290/rushhour_2019_dl_leaflet-web-122019.pdf followed by the Heritage Transport Festival at the end of July https://www.gov.im/media/1364585/transport-festival-24-28-july-2019.pdf Locos 12 & 13 should also be available for traffic although the former's boiler ticket runs out later in the year. It is hoped that #4 Loch (1874) will return to traffic by then as its boiler (complete with retro fitted Salter safety valves) is in its final stages of overhaul at the SVR. As always further info can be found on the Heritage Railway Volunteers Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/hrviom/
    Cheers,
    Ray.
     
  20. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    875
    Location:
    i.o.m
    The Isle of Man Steam Railway has now been running for over a month and we are all looking forward to Rush Hour on the Railways over Easter. On the motive power front the season opened with small boilered No8 Fenella based out of Port Erin and ex MNR Caledonia out of Douglas. Last week No12 Hutchinson replaced 'Caley' and No13 has been out on 'pay & play' (sorry... "Ultimate Driving Experience"). Passenger numbers appear to be quite good considering that it is early in the season and a large group off a cruise liner necessitated a six coach train yesterday morning. No4's boiler is now complete at the SVR and is just awaiting a steam test. Several carriages have had/are having minor bodywork repairs and a re-paint including the unique Foxdale coach which, uniquely, retains its MNR livery. One small F is having a major rebuild by contractors in Douglas workshops whilst 'pairs' F62 is progressing at Stanegate Restorations.
    No8 on the 3 coach 11.50 from Douglas today lost 6 mins between Douglas and Castletown but she is 125 this year so maybe we can excuse a bit of late running!
    There's still time to join us for Rush Hour https://www.gov.im/media/1364290/rushhour_2019_dl_leaflet-web-122019.pdf or the Heritage Transport Festival in July https://www.gov.im/media/1364585/transport-festival-24-28-july-2019.pdf
    Cheers,
    Ray. IMG_1662.JPG
     

Share This Page