Isle of Man Railway Number 7 Tynwald Removed from the Island

Getting back to the the real issues: the removal of the frames of No.7 off island ... and getting far away from Mr Thomson's ramblings about his fiance's qualifications ????

Reading General, you are correct; the replacement frames were on No7 from about 1928 until 1939 when it was rebuilt with the boiler and other items from No.4 in 1946.

The picture I added of the frames was a bit tongue in cheek to be honest; as the actual bunker has No.7 painted on it, I altered it to reveal the true identity of the frames...!!

As for Jonathan's question about the new BP frames in the Manx Peacocks Book that I make reference to: The new frames were obtained for No.7 & No.10 following the Oakhill crash in 1928 when the two locos crashed head on. If you have access to Boyd's Volume 3 of the Isle of Man Railways, there is a picture of the pair still locked together after the crash outside Douglas's workshops on plate 74. The impact is quite considerable and clearly that the frames of both engines must took a lot of the force of the crash. They did try and straighten them out in the workshops but had to obtain replacement frames from BP in the end.

A few years earlier in 1925 No. 3 Pender crashed and over ran the buffers at Douglas and into the circulating area beyond that. The engine was badly damaged in the accident and it is believed that new frames were needed for No.3 too.

The story of the Manx engines is very complex with lots of parts being swopped around to keep the fleet running over the years. It still goes on today and its one reason the engines still survive today. My theory is that possibly all that remains of the original engines is their nameplates and builders plates, and it is reputed that some of these might be copies too. Boyd summed it up nicely by saying that: "The Manx BPs are like an old fisherman's knife; its has had three new blades and two new handles in its life time, but it still his original knife to him"....

The attached picture is actually No.4 as running today, but what secrets lie underneath - No.7s frames and bits from various other engines over the years.

 

Though the original story linked to states that TYNWALD is going "to the Southwold Railway", I have not seen any similar announcement from them. Does anyone know where exactly, and to whom, the loco is actually going? The Southwold Railway does not AFAIK have a site to call its own yet, they are still awaiting planning permission for their Wenhanston Heritage Centre.

 

But the frames that have been exported were originally built for No. 4 and only gained the identity of "No. 7" after Tynwald was dismantled...right?

 

That seems to be the case - Manx Railway history is a very tangled web with lots of twists and turns and fragments of records. Its believe that the 'Tynwald frames' are the original 1874 frames of No.4 Loch. In the future, records might turn up to reveal that the original frames under Loch were swopped earlier its career and the 'Tynwald frames' actually belong to another of its Manx BP sisters...!

However, building a locomotive on those frames at its new home and calling it Tynwald is okay too as its just another twist to the Manx BP story.

 

Interestingly,yesterday Allan Thomson posted,on the IOMSRSA forum, a copy of a letter he had received from the director of Manx National Heritage concerning the granting of an export licence. In it he states that Mr.Hendry originally asked for the licence so that the items could go to the West Clare and then for it be amended in favour of the Southwold. Ray.

 

This is one of the most concerning things about the whole business - (apart from the way it was all hushed up subject of rumours rather than being a matter of public record), that one minute they are going one place, another minute they are going somewhere else (and what's to say that they don't end up going to another site from there?). It seems to show there's been a lack of consideration, planning or aforethought on the part of the owner that they can choose to move the frames and coach elsewhere. If that similar lack of consideration and planning has been exercised with regards to the conditions that the coach (and possibly the frames) will be stored in, and with regards to their hope of actually being restored (given the owner's poor past track record) then basically the Cleminson is history.

One only hopes that someone at Southwold rather than involved with that organisation has done some planning with regards to how the carriage will be stored and maintained......

 

If something is owned by a private organisation, why should their decisions be "a matter of public record"?

Richard

 

What you don't seem to have got is that there's an export licence required due to the significance of these items. Therefore it should be a matter of public record because some of the decisions about what is eligible to leave the Island are made by government and a Quango. Therefore it should have been publicised as government is supposed to be transparent and the general public should have been given enough notice to make their objections known.

I guess you don't understand because you're not from here.

At the end of the day that organisation (which no-one except for a small clique knows how to join) is supposed to be safeguarding the historical items they obtained by brown nosing unpopular management at a time when on Island organisations were out in the wilderness because they used political means to object to the way that the then manager was bloody mindedly destroying items of the Island's railway heritage. Time and time again they have been approached, made offers and refused to part with some of the items they have alledgedly been desparately searching for homes for on Island and now say that they have to take them off Island to preserve them when they've done nothing with them for the last 30 years (with the exception of Fenella which took them long enough)...

 

What is preventing the owner from scrapping these items on the island locally ?

Are they listed as historic structures, artefacts or cultural or heritage significance in the IOM ?
Is there a protection order on it ?

What separates them from say, a rotten 70 odd year old garden shed in someone's back yard being demolished by its owner ?

If nothing, then export licences are more about trade and compliance than anything else... As they are not hazardous and little more than scrap iron, why would the government care ?

I don't want to sound insulting to the Polish, but you are starting to sound like a polish official when it comes to protecting and preventing exports of its scrap pkp locomotives. I quote an ol49 in Lublin... Instead of being sold and exported for £8000 a mechanically complete and sound ol49 was sold to a slovakian scrappie for half the price £4000 and subsequently dismantled and exported as scrap iron to china...

hence my comparison here....

theres preservation then there's hysteria..one does more harm than good.
Antagonise the owner enough he may just gas axe it to get people off his back.?. After all there is little of value there apart from sentiment.

 

They wouldn't be allowed to scrap them locally, as they are regarded as historical artifacts and have some cultural and heritage significance to the Island.
N42 is one of the few cleminsons in existance, the only publically viewable one on Island, plus the only example of the typical rolling stock of the MNR. I am fairly sure that there are protection orders on them too. Having had a fairly detailed response from the director of the Manx Museum he himself states that if the items were not of importance then an export licence would not have been required.

As I've highlighted N42 is more at risk being removed from the Island than if the owner swallowed his pride and allowed a local organisation to purchase it and restore it so that it could be displayed in a musem. He'd save the cost of shipping it off Island, save the risk of a historical artefact being destroyed and make a bit more money to put towards his (pigs might fly) locomotive frame rebuild....

I think your example of the polish official is invalid, especially as the owner has had custody of these items, done nothing to maintain them for over thirty years and will not part with them (yet expected to keep them on IOMRly property free of charge for many years), then claim he is removing them to preserve and protect them. Really the significance of the items should have been recognised and they should have been compulsory purchase back from him at a token price due to him not doing anything to restore maintain or even pay rent for the storage of the items.

 

I think it is time you accepted that these vehicles are gone, but hopefully some good may come of it - may we expect to see you getting involved with the restoration of some of the unrestored vehicles still on the island. Showing that these are valued and cared for would help if a similar situation were to ever rise again.

 

Actually I've already been involved with the restoration of a locomotive on Island No6 Peveril when I was 13, since then the opportunity hasn't arisen but had the opportunity arisen to work on No5 or 9 I would be more than willing, infact at one point I was contemplating making an sensible offer for the frames of No7 myself if no-one else was interested, however the owner didn't bother to reply to my correspondence. When I've finished my degree and have more time I particularily wish to spearhead the restoration of some locomotives.

In addition I was involved in rebuilding the snaefell wheel, so don't think I am some sort of armchair enthusiast....

 

In semi-related news, here's a pic of a Cleminson wagon in use earlier this week on a train carrying beer to Porthmadog Harbour Station...

 

Nobody is suggesting 'we' boycott the Southwold project at all. As I've said repeatedly this is nothing to do with the guys at Southwold and I wish them all the luck with their project. However the fact remains that there isn't the facilities there to provide a safe storage for the artefacts, there's been several attempts to establish something which has met with strong local objections. I doubt the two items getting sent to them is going to further their project any more (given that they already have the frames for a sharpie and need to concentrate their resources on rebuilding that), and the fact that it was originally going to the South Clare before the sudden change to Southwold just serves to demonstrate the haphazard and slapdash way the move is going to be carried out.

Indeed I'd be interested to hear a comment from the Southwold Railway themselves and also one from South Clare on what was the story about the change of plan for the destination of the frames?.... And I mean that in a friendly way as I bear them no anamosity or ill will.

As I've repeatedly pointed out if the owner really wanted to see the items restored and going to a safe home he would have taken the various offers made by people on the Island instead of ignoring them, and he would have buried his silly little dispute with the IMR and come to some sort of agreement with them to reassemble the locomotive. As I've continued to point out, there is considerably more parts, patterns and experience which could go towards reassembling a Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T on the Island than there will be available to the fledgeling Southwold railway or the "Isle of Man Railway and Tramway Preservation Society" in the United Kingdom. All that's happened is that the society has thrown its toys out of the pram and shipped some artefacts which have survived for years on island off to a very uncertain fate....

And a final word on that society - their title is the "Isle of Man Railway and Tramway Preservation Society" - therefore by their aims they should be aiming to preserve the items (which they've shown very little interest in) and preserve some of the history and authenticity of the Isle of Man Railway. There is nowhere else you can do that but on Island, otherwise it might as well as change it's name to The Rugby Boys Club Trainset....

Perhaps the next thing will be that they'll throw their toys out of the pram at Southwold and head off to Sodor next?....

 

Nice image, thankyou for sharing it. Am I correct in thinking that cleminson has a metal underframe instead of a wooden one?

 

What a nice picture.

Paul H

 

Excellent use of a Cleminson wagon. I trust the ale arrived safely.

 

It's not a Cleminson waggon, it is refered to by those with the correct information as the iron bogie waggon, it does not truly follow the cleminson patent. It does indeed have an iron frame. A further explanation is available HERE.

As much as I like the IOM railway system, this thread is ridiculous, its dissapointing these things are leaving the island, especially the coach, the only reason I've followed it is incase David L-J posts more info that's actually interesting.

 

Returning back to the thread. We have established that No.7's frames have left the island bound for Southwold, the Clemison could follow soon - if well enough to travel, Allan is not an armchair enthusiast and his fiancé has an education.

Okay, the 'Tynwald frames' have left the island, which in the grand scheme of things is not that big. Its a redundant set of frames that is slowing rusting away, and if tested by a metallurgist, there is a chance that the frames might have passed their sell by date in any case, and not suitable for a basis of new 'Tynwald'. So let them rust in peace somewhere regardless of the possible witch hunt to find the individual who signed the export papers.

The owners of the Tynwald frames have returned an actual working steam locomotive back to the Isle of Man Railway so it can be used again; along with No.5 & No.9, albeit wrapped in asbestos, which can be restored. Its nice to see a smaller boilered engine No. 8 'Fenella' with small tanks and sloping smoke back in action and for many it has been the highlight of the their trip over to the island this year. So the trade off for a set of old frames and perhaps a historical coach, which needs massive amounts of love, care, work and of course money to restore, I think it has been worth it. Its also generated a little extra publicity for the Island's railways in a positive way (apart from Allan's ramblings, which are starting to make the rest of us over here look a bit stupid)...

There is a chance that unique Manx Electric Railway goods trams No.23 & No.26 could leave the island too if the owner decides, which are considered of more historical value than the Tynwald frames as they are complete apart from power bogies (which No.23 borrowed off another in any case). This would be worth shouting about more than the frames as they are one offs, unlike the BPs where there are plenty still remaining in various states.

Finally, who is going to save all these toys that were thrown out of the prams that Allan mentions, and do they have correctly signed export papers to get rid of them??

The frames have gone, but there is still loads of working steam on the island and plenty to see and photograph - if you have never been before I recommend a visit next summer. You will not be disappointed...!!!

Picture: No.10 'G H Wood' of 1905 in 1960s 'Alisa' green livery with a rake of blood & custard coaches storm out of Douglas station at speed ready to climb the two mile long bank to Port Soderick - Pure magic... How can you refuse a ride on that??