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Is a real Bulldog possible ?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by hyboy, Dec 9, 2013.

  1. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    Was 3427 one of the batch which, before assembly, had their new no 4 boilers swapped for second-hand parallel No 2s off Aberdares to give the latter more power?

    Therefore, in the absence of a parallel No 2 to make it 'original', would Truro's boiler be available to allow assembly of a 'might have been'?

    :p
     
  2. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Earlier in the thread it was noted that 9017 had a fair bit of framing replaced at the last overhaul... All you have to do is find those bits and there's the start of a Bulldog rebuild with genuine Bulldog frames...
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Well, you'll be looking for little flakes of rust scattered across North Wales then!

    The frames weren't replaced on a whim: they were replaced because the originals had to a large extent simply disappeared!

    Tom
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I suspect Truro's boiler is about as available as 9017's frames and wheels for that sort of might-have-been project...

    (The denizens of NatPres do sometimes seem awfully good at dreaming up ways to spend other people's money!)

    Tom
     
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  5. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Surely if you want a GWR loco to represent the period prior to 1920, won't 2999 fill that ?, the 2 cylinder 4-6-0 might seem modern, but doesn't the design date from 1902 or around ?, hardly a gaping hole between the Broad Gauge in 1892 and the Saints coming onto the scene.

    If your desperate for something to fill that 10-15 year gap, I'd be more supporting of the Dean Single idea, also the basis that single wheelers were common across all companies at that time, but of those left, how many are active ?.

    Even if it was hypothetically possible, I just could not bring myself to support any idea to mess with 9017, Dukedogs for me are the iconic loco's of the ex Cambrian system, much more so than Manors or 43XX's.
     
  6. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    what about the 1837 period to 1900?
    GWR was never all Broad gauge you know and there were locos before Churchward and his Saints
     
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  7. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    What do you propose then ?, a Bulldog certainly doesn't cover prior to 1890.
     
  8. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    did I not already say Dean Single?
     
  9. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    What do you propose then ?, a Bulldog certainly doesn't cover prior to 1890.
    When it's frames receive the taper boiler use 9017s parallel one to build a Barnum, or a 157

    Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk
     
  10. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I recall saying I'd prefer that to playing about with 9017 ?.
     
  11. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    so what?
     
  12. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    What are we debating if we are in agreement ? :confused:
     
  13. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    If we can't use the OP's boiler from 5668 to make a Bulldog can we use it on 3440 to make an Atbara?

    Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk
     
  14. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    No you can't. :)
     
  15. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Were the frames the same? I thought they were subtly different, but I can't lay my hands on a reference that says so, so I could be wrong. Atbara -> City is valid, but I'm not sure about vice versa. The 4-4-0s were incredibly complicated with the majority of permutations of medium and large wheels, Std 2, 3 and 4 boilers, and various depths of frame having been built/rebuilt at one stage or another. Don't think there are any Std 3 boilers in captivity though unless someone knows better. However I think you could make a Std3 by putting a Std 10 barrel on a Std 2 Firebox.
     
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think we are debating the possibility of using money that is non-existent to slice and dice the components from one or more locomotives that aren't actually available to produce replicas of real and hypothetical locos that all look basically identical ...

    Tom (fetching coat!)
     
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  17. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    Oh don't be such a wet blanket! It's of academic interest and I for one like to learn more about early locos not represented in preservation.
     
  18. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    my favourite GWR of all time is the Armstrong 'Standard Goods class double framed 0-6-0 locos. there's a ship load of them at the bottom of the English Channel sunk in WW1. it is because J.N. Maskelyne failed to preserve one of these locos in the 1930's that he arranged the preservation of Dean Goods 2516 in the 1950's. (J.N. Maskelyne also arranged for GLADSTONE to be preserved).

    i would love to see a fullsize Armstrong Standard Goods! ive got my own in miniature (5"g). perchance to dream....

    cheers,
    julian
     
  19. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    If somebody wants to recreate a Bulldog all they have to do is raise the money and then build it (Facebook group is optional - truly). I don't see the point in butchering an authentic GWR survivor with its own unique history in order to create a replica. Is Collet's successful Dukedog design somehow considered inferior just because it cleverly re-used parts from older locos?
     
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  20. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    hi Miff,
    get a copy of K.J. Cook's book Swindon Steam which describes how TRE POL AND PEN was converted at his suggestion, which resulted in the EARL class. the DUKEDOG name seems to be a late 1950's nickname! an example of Swindon standardization at it's finest! the DUKES were a hugely successful design (their layout and valve gear being the same as when CITY OF TRURO went 100mph in 1904 with the same design of valve gear etc), but by the late 1920s the frames were getting 'past it'. the last of the DUKES dear old 'COMET' was withdrawn in 1951. it must be remembered that the double framed locos had quite flimsy frames. part of the inside frames were 'cut out' for the cylinders. the BULLDOGS had the same design problems. but being of later construction were therefore in the 1930' s considered better, especially as (perhaps pertinent to this thread) they were relegated to secondary duties by later more powerful locos. however a need for a light weight DUKE type loco still persisted on the Cambrian, hence the re-builds from BULLDOG to EARLS. the EARL/DUKE boiler is basically a DEAN GOODS later type boiler, and much lighter than the BULLDOG boiler.
    the EARLS are a fascinating part of GWR history - showing how 'improvisation' coupled with 'standardization' produced a replacement for the elderly DUKES, plus of course Collett's snub at the GWR Board with the naming of the 'new' class! this shows an awful lot about Collett's character, and perhaps makes him as endearing as his illustrious predecessor Churchward!
    dear old COMET was at Didcot in later years and regularly worked the line to southampton. some 'wag' added 'IN' and 'AX' either side of her nameplates! she retained the original Dean cab to the end with outside springs around same. there was quite a huge variety of EARLS due to incorporating the Dean parts, different sandboxes, chimneys etc. some had top feed, some like 9017 didn't. some had the later Collet tenders, some didn't. some had fluted coupling rods, other not!
    as for the the BULLDOGS/BIRDS, i loved CHAFFINCH! Churchward chose all loco names personally. they reflect his personality from THE GREAT BEAR 101, to dear old CHAFFINCH!
    there is nothing quite like a GWR outside framed 4-4-0 in my opinion! to see one running is quite something!
    hoping the NRM get CITY OF TRURO repaired again in the not too distant future. probably not much work required compared to the Bluebell's 9017!
    cheers,
    julian
     
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