If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Injectors.

Discussion in 'Locomotive M.I.C.' started by Eightpot, Aug 19, 2017.

  1. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    8,522
    Likes Received:
    2,917
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'm a bit confused by this. AFAIK, all the BR standards had hand wheel controlled dampers. No doubt stdtank will confirm.
     
  2. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    112
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I've only ever been on the footplate of one BR Standard, a 4-6-0- Class 4; and I honestly can't remember how they worked. I'm only quoting what the writer said in the book (which I read years ago, and can't even remember the title or author).

    But the main point I wanted to make was how surprised I was by the range of adjustment on the feed rate using that exhaust steam injector, which was far greater than on any of the 'live steam only' injectors I'd used before.
     
  3. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    1,144
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    None of the Ivatt class 2 engines that I have been on had an exhaust steam injector nor did they have hand wheel adjusted dampers. puzzled.
     
  4. Sheff

    Sheff Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    6,637
    Likes Received:
    1,155
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Engineer & Heritage Volunteer
    Location:
    N Warks
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Ivatt 2's had an ESI ?? I'm 99.9% certain they had vertical Monitors each side. I spent several years doing turns on 41241 inc a week at the Shildon 150 in 1975. I can't think of any loco below Class 5 that had an ESI fitted (GWR excepted as I know nothing there). I also don't recall handwheel damper controls - they were simple pull-up handles.

    Edit - Just in case the tender version was different (unlikely given Ivatt's standardisation policy) I trawled the internet and found this image - clearly pull-up dampers and no adjustable ESI water handle .......

    inside-cab-ivatt-class-mt-steam-locomotive-england-65020033.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  5. huochemi

    huochemi Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,515
    Likes Received:
    508
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    42500 (a 4P I think) at the NRM has a polished and very prominent D&M Class H exhaust steam injector.;)
     
    Sheff likes this.
  6. Sheff

    Sheff Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    6,637
    Likes Received:
    1,155
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Engineer & Heritage Volunteer
    Location:
    N Warks
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Ah - the exception that disproves my rule. I guess they did a fair amount of work at high continuous outputs so we'll let them off !
     
    huochemi likes this.
  7. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    112
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    As I pointed out above, I've only worked on one example of a BR Standard (4-6-0- Class 4), and I can't remember anything about the dampers on it at all.
     
  8. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    112
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    As far as it being an exhaust steam injector, I can only repeat what I was told by the bloke who arranged the hire; I wouldn't recognise the difference between the two - all I was told was "That's the water valve, that's the steam valve, and it's an exhaust steam injector."

    But, as far as the hand-wheel adjusters are concerned, there isn't the slightest doubt in my mind that the Ivatt 2 that I worked on did have them. That was the only engine I ever fired which had them - in fact, I'd never even heard of damper adjusters like that - and I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread, which is why my memory of them is so crystal clear.

    I'm not saying that it was built with them; plenty of engines have been quite drastically modified - both before and after preservation - so there's no telling. But I'd happily stake my life that that particular Ivatt, when it worked on the K & ESR for that very short spell, DID have wheel adjusters.

    No offence intended to anyone, but nobody is going to shake me on that - because I was there, and you were not.
     
  9. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    1,144
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Which engine number was it?
     
  10. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    112
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It was about 25 years ago, and I only worked on her for one day - I have no idea what the number was.
     
  11. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    1,144
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Sorry John that would have been 46443 from the Severn Valley Railway, I can assure you that it does not have an exhaust steam Injector or wheel adjusted damper controls. I have driven and fired it at the SVR many times between 1976 and 1997. I am sure that any of the contributors from the SVR can confirm that it has two live steam monitor injectors and normal lift up handles for the dampers.
     
    jtx likes this.
  12. Wenlock

    Wenlock Active Member Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    312
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Bus Driver
    Location:
    Loughton Essex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You referred to a comfy seat. Did you have a go on the 21c on that day? That certainly has a comfy seat.
    I wasn't there, but I believe they were paired up.
     
  13. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    112
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Sorry - I've no idea what the 21C is. Can you explain, please?
     
  14. Wenlock

    Wenlock Active Member Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    312
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Bus Driver
    Location:
    Loughton Essex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    NSB 21C class, no 376 (KESR fleet no 19) "Norwegian"
     
  15. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    112
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    As I said before, I wouldn't recognise an exhaust steam injector - I'm only repeating what I was told by the driver.

    As regards the wheel adjusters coming up out of the floor, that memory is crystal clear in my mind. You say "that would have been 46443" - as to that I wouldn't know, and I'm not disputing what you say about that engine. What I can say categorically is the the Ivatt 2 tender loco that I fired on the Kent & East Sussex DID have that pair of brass wheels on vertical stems coming up out of the floor, and that I was able to sit on the seat and twirl the one I was using round with the toe of my boot - whilst leaving the other one alone. In other words, the one I was using was the rear damper, and I left the front damper shut.

    So, you tell me; if that control was not the damper, just what WAS it?
     
  16. John Baritone

    John Baritone New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2018
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    112
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Buxton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Oh, yes!! A lovely engine, with very well laid out and clearly marked controls; unsurprisingly, as the man who did that part of the job was Adrian Landi - a damn fine driver and a first rate engineer (and also a Lloyd's coded welder).

    That Norwegian rode like a coach and was a first rate steamer; she even had rear view mirrors on both sides of the cab, which were a bit of a luxury for us, but obviously vital in avoiding frost-bite when she was working inside the Arctic circle in winter. The only thing I found awkward was judging the depth of fire at the back of the grate, as it was so deep that unless you put an enormous fire in, you couldn't see it at all.
     
  17. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    1,144
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    John as others have confirmed further up the thread Ivatt 2 locos have pull up handles to control the dampers, I am trying rack my brains to imagine what the brass wheels that you refer to could have been . We shall have to agree to disagree.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
    Jamessquared likes this.
  18. jtx

    jtx Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,901
    Likes Received:
    850
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Happily retired
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Like gwalkeriow, I have many years', (30+) experience of firing, and, latterly, driving both the, then, SVR Ivatt Class 2s, 46443 and 46521 and can state, categorically, that they have typical LMS notched pull - up lever damper controls. I quite agree that the wheel - operated controls are far superior, but I have only seen them on B. R. Standards and Bullied Pacifics. (Possibly other Pacifics as well, I can't remember)

    To get back to the injector theme, I got to 46521 one Monday morning to find the fire out and the water just visible in the bottom nut, if you stood on tiptoe. There was 30 lbs on the clock, but the injector picked up enough to put the water in sight so I could light the fire. I cut the water right back until just before it knocked off, but it did the biz.
     
    Steve and gwalkeriow like this.
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    14,129
    Likes Received:
    16,631
    Location:
    21C102
    Bringing this back to injectors, for anyone wanting to see inside one. This was used in our MIC classes; obviously continuing a tradition!

    fullsizeoutput_1105.jpeg

    For orientation, it's upside down. But as shown, water enters at top left and, in the absence of anything else, flows out through the overflow top right; the steam admission is bottom left and the delivery to the boiler is bottom right.

    fullsizeoutput_110c.jpeg
    fullsizeoutput_1107.jpeg

    Tom
     
    30854, jtx, RLinkinS and 3 others like this.
  20. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,384
    Likes Received:
    1,111
    Ivatt cl 2 locos are not fitted with exhaust injectors as built or received from BR & its pretty unlikely that any have pres era mods to fit one - certainly not a simple matter when the designer has not allowed for it. Similarly all the Ivatt Cl 2 tank (41xxx) or tender (46xxx) locos I have seen, (most but not all of them) have simple lifting lever dampers. The BR Std cl2 (78xxx) though does, like all BR std locos, have the wheel type damper controls. 46xxx & 78xxx Cl2's are very similar in outward appearance & quite clearly the BR version is based on the earlier design. Your "Ivatt" might have been a 78xxx perhaps?
     
    jtx and gwalkeriow like this.

Share This Page