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Homes needed for 4cig and 4vop

Discussion in 'Diesel & Electric Traction' started by SR.Keoghoe, Jun 26, 2016.

  1. mrKnowwun

    mrKnowwun Part of the furniture

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    all of em (except suicide, unless I am posting from the other side)

    (dont you just love autocorrect on smartphones.....)
     
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  2. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    So exactly how many Mrs Knowwun's were there at the same time?
     
  3. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    only two....Bigamy is having two wives, having three wives is called Madness.
     
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  4. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    The 306 was, as far as I know, in excellent condition when the NRM took it over. I had been on two Ian Allen railtours on it and great fun they were. It now doesn't work and as far as I know is stored in the open. It isn't going to be around for long that way, even though, since it is 25kv and not Mk1 it is one of the few units that could do some main line running. It even has power doors. I'm glad there are a couple of 302 trailers at Mangapps - I'm sorry to say that living now on the other side of the country I haven't been there.

    None of this addresses the point, however. Are we a heritage movement or just an entertainment? If the former we must make some attempt to retain a reasonably representative selection of equipment. The NRM in particular had an excellent opportunity with the 306 which seems to have been ignored.
     
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  5. Sawdust

    Sawdust Member

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    While it isn't possible to save an example of everything, noteworthy multiple units do deserve to be preserved and as this is not something that is sustainable within the private sector, then it is up to the NRM to step up to the plate. Since they frequently say they shouldn't be duplicating things provided by the private sector then logically they should be preserving things that are not viable in the private sector, providing they are judged to be significant.

    That said a Mk1 is a Mk1 even if it is self propelled or designed for use with other units or a handful specific diesel classes, that alone does not make them have historical importance, which makes them vulnerable to the vagaries of market forces and unfortunately having incompatible braking and heating systems makes them (as has been said before) unattractive to established railways, while the difficulties with the incompatibilities are beyond emerging railways to overcome.

    If I were the owner of one of these units I would put my resources into fitting firstly steam heat and secondly converting them to vacuum or dual braking to get them a future. Otherwise if I didn't have such resources (and had just bought it because that's the easy bit) and no business plan I'd cut my losses and send for scrap.

    History will show that there are more worthy targets for preservation coming up in the future such as 150s, 153s, 156s, 158s and HSTs, as it can be argued that all these represent development in construction method and materials which Mk1 EMU stock does not.

    Sawdust.
     
  6. weltrol

    weltrol Part of the furniture Friend

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    This was an example of EMU preservation.......



    LNER 59604 Glossop/Hadfield EMU (scrapped) built 1954[​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    LNER 59604 Glossop/Hadfield EMU (scrapped) built 1954



    Present Location Midland Railway Centre (scrapped)
    County Location Derbyshire
    Designed For LNER
    Built by BRCW
    Type DTSO
    First Number 59604
    Later Numbers M59604M
    Gauge 4ft 8 1/2in
    Wheel Arrangement 4-w bogies
    Original Underframe Yes
    Original Bogies/Wheelsets Yes
    Additional Notes 3-car EMU (Glossop/Hadfield). P 1985 by W Yorks Transport Museum Trust, kept briefly at Dinting then stored at Bradford Hammerton St till 1989, then MRT: resold twice 1995: then scrapped by owner at Booths, Rotherham. See also 59404, 59504.
    Owner South Staffs Locomotives Ltd
    External Structural Condition Satisfactory
    Internal Structural Condition Satisfactory
    Underframe Condition Satisfactory
    External Finish Satisfactory
    Internal Finish Satisfactory
    Degree of External Originality As built/last Passenger rebuild (BR or before)
    Degree of Internal Originality As built/last Passenger rebuild (BR or before)
    Degree of Underframe/Running Gear Originality As built/last Passenger rebuild (BR or before)
    Rarity n/a
    Historical Importance no Immediate Importance/Not Applicable
    Operating No
    Survey Date 28/06/1997
    Surveyor Lee Sharpe
    Photo Date 29/11/1994
    At Risk No
    Date Record Last Updated 24/04/2016

    A complete unit, power doors, air braked, with conventional drawgear....
     
  7. M59137

    M59137 Well-Known Member

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    This view doesn't really represent most of us in active preservation. Suburban commuting railways have always been awful. The Quad Art set at the NNR is cramped, uncomfortable and fairly poor riding. For many years their condition was nothing short of rancid and they were completely unpresentable. However, fully restored and operated accordingly they are a fantastic insight into times gone by and they are now immensely popular.

    First Generation DMU's, if restored properly, can be beautiful ways to travel along our heritage lines. However in the 1980's they were also bloody awful!

    I think there is a place for a sensible number of these Mark 1 EMU's, but as others have already said the owners need to get them out of faded Connex livery, change the failed double glazing units that are scratched with commuters' messages and get working lights and heat in them. There are plenty of growing railways with duel braked locos who shouldn't have a problem with having an EMU as a second rake of carriages, providing they are not unusable eyesores. The challenge, of course, is raising units up to this condition with the limited interest and resources of EMU preservation.

    Sent from my HTC Desire 620 using Tapatalk
     
  8. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    Exactly. And its loss makes the 306 even more precious, even though it is altered and the Glossop / Hadfield one wasn't . Isn't it now the only EMU from the Mk1 / Pre Mk1 era (which, after all, is some 60 years!) that is both complete in its original formation and potentially operational? (In that, AFAIK, there is nothing to prevent it running on the main line?)
     
  9. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Would there be enough demand to justify a 'main line' certified EMU or two to run excursions?
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Provided it's a Pullman, probably...

    Tom
     
  11. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    I think you hit the nail on the head. About the only emu with a USP is the 5BEL. I can't see much of a future for any other unless it is funded by it's owners and supporters.
     
  12. Maximus

    Maximus New Member

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    Don't forget the pre-war Nelson COR unit that the Southern Electric Group own.
     
  13. Maximus

    Maximus New Member

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    I wonder much of the same thing to be honest. Theres a lot of EMU mainline wannabes but on 3rd rail your market is limited, same as on O/H although theres more O/H than 3rd rail....
     
  14. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Thinking about it for a moment, now The Swanage Railway has a 4TC & there are a number of DEMU's in preservation, and given that it is possible to run some Southern EMU's with a MLV, it is possible, to some extent to recreate the 'Southern' experience in preservation.

    The challenge however is to try to recreate the Electric Experience as it was outside those areas.
     
  15. weltrol

    weltrol Part of the furniture Friend

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    There are the ex Merseyrail units, 502 ex NRM which is, to put it bluntly, in a heck of a state, and the 503 at Coventry.
     
  16. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    ..... but at least, since 2012, it has been undercover and is being restored after nearly 20 years of outside storage and neglect.
    Ray.
     
  17. SR.Keoghoe

    SR.Keoghoe New Member

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    It must be noted that the 4-VOP only survived because of the Brighton Belle project, the group bought two 4-VOPs as spares and to use the under frames to strengthen the coaches to get around a lot of paper work. One set was not needed minus the MBSO so it was donated to save the cigs group, and that's why it is at the Dartmoor railway. http://www.400series.co.uk/?page_id=462
     
  18. None which comply with the original question, which was:

    Nor do the 2BIL, 4SUB and miscellaneous other pre-MK1 EMU vehicles which survive.

    Incidentally the NRM has just removed the 4VEP driving trailer from the National Collection and dispatched it off to sunny Kent.
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    4 VEP 3417 is an EMU that is complete, of the Mark 1 era, and potentially operational.

    Tom
     
  20. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I find it interesting - and a wee bit depressing - that even the 4-COR unit is largely forgotten. Given that, I'm inclined to agree that the 5BEL is about the only unit that is likely to be economically self-sustaining based on farebox income.
     
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