Help needed with date of photo

Evening all

Can anyone help me with an approx date for the 3 following photos

(Complete with its own WC on running plate) i jest (indicator shack i believe)

Assorted MR locos - Railway-Photography's Photos | SmugMug

Assorted MR locos - Railway-Photography's Photos | SmugMug

Also class of Loco please

Assorted MR locos - Railway-Photography's Photos | SmugMug

Neil

 

The 'WC on running plate' is probably a temporary shelter for works staff taking 'indicator diagrams' while the loco is under test on the move. So I would suggest this may date from the time this class of loco was introduced.

According to C. Hammilton Ellis's book "The Midland Railway" this series of 4-2-2 wheelers was introduced in 1887, with number 25 being based at Kentish Town.

Re the 1179 MR Loco at Haynsham - the same book has no record of an MR 4-4-0 passenger with that 1179 number. (And it lists all 674 MR passenger tender locos!)

 

RE 1179, I read the number on the tender as 385 or 386, Neil. That would make it a Deeley rebuild of a Johnson 4-4-0.

Also a typo in a caption , it's "Peartree & Normanton" and not what you've got.

 

Reference to "Locomotives at the Grouping Vol 3 London Midland & Scottish by HC Casserley / SW Johnson offers the following scenarios :

Assorted MR locos - Railway-Photography's Photos | SmugMug : this class of locomotives were built from 1887 with varying driving wheel / cylinder dimensions - presuming that this was the class which [at 1923] had had 600 added to the fleet numbers. Given the variations it is presumable that locos were tested to compare the differences in road running between St Pancras and Derby thereby tending to confirm John Webb's thought that thes tests occurered shortly after construction - possibly between 1887 - 1890.

Assorted MR locos - Railway-Photography's Photos | SmugMug : The rear locomotive appears to be 3870 / 3878 which was built pre-1923 between 1911 - 1922; the lead engine is 600 which had been modified with a Deeley cab and allocated to Director's Saloon duties. My guess - based on building rates - is that the image was taken during WWI between 1914 - 1918.

Assorted MR locos - Railway-Photography's Photos | SmugMug : I'm sure this has been noted before - although the name is wrong on the caption I suspect Heysham is the correct name. Blowing this image up the Tender Number appears to be 385 which was one of 15 Johnson-built 4-4-0s which were rebuilt during their life with Deeley cabs between 1909 - 1912 and lasted through the Grouping era until the first withdrawal in 1925 whilst 3 survived to BR days. If Heysham it would confirm the MR designation of the locomotive as this was part of the Leeds - Lancaster - Morecambe / Heysham line built by the MR to gain acccess to the Irish traffic.

As an aside Neil I would recommend buying the complete set of 4 books titled "Locomotives at the Grouping" by HC Casserley & SW Johnston. Although published by Ian Allan in 1966 the set of 4 is still noted for sale at various heritage lines and would be worth buying - it could answer many of your questions concerning pre-Grouping traction.

 

Thanks Fred for that detailed response. Yes i did ask a while ago for any info, that was when the photos were on my defunct fotopic site, which i lost all the info at the time

Neil

 

Glad to help Neil but would seriously suggest you try to obtain a set of the Locomotives At The Grouping - a valuable asset especially with the amount of compilation you are doing. The same authors also published "Locomotives at Nationalisation" which is both a good set in its own right and complementary to "Locomotives At The Grouping".