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GWR Tenders

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by GWR4707, Jan 30, 2009.

  1. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

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    This is one of those silly and unimportant things that end up playing on my mind, so bear with me....

    Once the Hawksworth 4000 gall tenders came on stream they were chopped and changed between locomotives as they were available, especially with regards to Halls and Castles. However there were certain other loco's that didn't seem to receive the Hawksworth ones (or if so I have never seen any photo's) - are their technical reasons for this.

    I seem to recall that the Collett tenders on the Kings were specific and thus could not be changed (something to do with water pipe diameters??) I have seen a photo once of a King with a Hawksworth tender but this was for movement within the works. However I have never seen a photo of a Grange or a 47xx with a Hawksworth tender - is it just that I haven't seen a picture or did it just not happen??

    Also never seen a County with a Collett tender??

    Apologies for the irrelevance of this, its just been bugging me.

    Ta
     
  2. Andy B

    Andy B Member

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    Im no expert, but looking at the county project website yesterday (very impressive progress) it states that Hawksworth tenders were originally built to 8' width to suit castles and halls etc, when the counties apperared the engines were built to 8' 6" width and therefore had new tenders from built to that dimension - so there were even variations in the flat sided tender (sorry dont like it! prefer the collet)
    Interesting reading at the moment - picked up a copy of Kenneth Cooks Swindon steam, from apprentice to Western region mechanical and electrical engineer, 1912 to 1951.
     
  3. buseng

    buseng Member

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    There was one Grange, either 6843 or 6844, that ran with a Hawksworth tender in the early 1960's. The Granges were also unique in that they ran with all types of GWR tender until the end.
     
  4. NDTSDN

    NDTSDN New Member

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    Only 3 Granges were recorded as having run with an Hawksworth tender.

    The most photographed being 6844 Penhydd Grange which was paired with hers from July 1962 onwards.

    See Page 41 in the Ian Allan book 'The Western Around London - A Colour Portfolio' by Kevin McCormack
     
  5. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    There is a Swindon drawing of a 3500 gal Hawksworth tender which was believed to be due for building until WWII intervened and they were never built.This was intended to start replacing the Churchward ones which even then were starting to get a bit old.

    If they had been built all sorts of locos would no doubt have been turned out with them.
     
  6. 8RPH

    8RPH New Member

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    GW tender water feed pipes are the same size no matter what as its a standard water valve used on almost everything. I believe the difference with King tenders was the footplate level. This being higher on a King than other classes.

    This is indeed true. Counties had their own design of Hawksworth tender which was wider than that fitted to other GW engines. Therefore these stayed with the Counties so I don't believe they were ever paired with anything else.
     
  7. NDTSDN

    NDTSDN New Member

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  8. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Thanks for all the replies, glad other people have shown an interest!

    Its surprising that more Granges never gained them!

    With regards to the King tenders, I think that the photo is in Kenneth Leach's book and whilst I don't remember what it was that made them different, I dont think it was footplate height - although I am not saying that that wasn't the issue. Incidentally I did read recently that 4000 North Star even after the various rebuilds always had a higher footplate than any of the other 4-6-0's.

    Interesting regarding the width of the County, will the new one at Didcot be as wide as the original ones?

    Finally a challenge for - was a 47xx ever fitted with a Hawksworth????
     
  9. Nick Gough

    Nick Gough Member

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    The first King tenders had two filler points on either side instead of the later single, central one. This was because when these tenders were first introduced a lot of the water cranes were too small to reach a central filler.
     
  10. Bob Meanley

    Bob Meanley New Member

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    There were indeed two different types of Hawksworth tenders (4000 gallons capacity with welded flush bottom tank officially). The Castle / Hall type were 8ft wide whereas the County was 8ft 6ins wide. The County type tank was also mounted to the frame very differently and the soleplate was approx 1.25ins higher above rail level than the other type. Due to its construction it did not have an angle iron around the base of the tank, very much following the style of the Stanier pattern tanks which Swindon made for the 8F's during the war.

    I have never got anyone to tell me why only certain types normally ran with them, but I think it is no co incidence that the only types which usually ran with them were engines which had built up dragboxes with independant rubber damped drawbars. Engines such as the kings had cast rear dragboxes and there is a suspicion that there was some concern about running both engine and tender with cast dragboxes where there was no rubber damping of the drawbar.
    It is probable that by the time of the odd Granges getting them, authority had given up bothering and it would be interesting to know if these were engines which had gone over to the LMR with regional boundary changes as it was quite common for tenders to be swapped on shed particularly if the engine had a leaking 3500 gals type and there was a good withdrawn one standing in the yard with another engine. As with the Kings, the 47's had cast dragboxes and it has always seemed unlikely that one ever ran with a Hawksworth tender but never say never as someone is bound to come up with a photo. The cast dragboxes were normally used where the engine's vac brake cylinder was at the rear under the cab as they were somewhat more compact than the standard type of built up dragbox and so gave more room for the vac cylinder

    Whilst tenders tended to stop with the Kings for long periods it was not unknown for them to move to other classes. They were however different in as much as the LH water feed pipe was indeed bigger, if memory serves correct 2.25ins rather than 2ins in order to ensure adequate feed to the exhaust injectors when they were fitted with the larger 12mm J type injectors. The other thing is that all the early 4000gallons tenders had twin fillers. I do not think that this had anything to do with short column arms as the columns managed to reach the central fillers on the churchward tenders presumably. Many years ago the late Ernie Nutty told me that the first 4000 gals tender had coal plates which carried on around the back of the tender at a constant height and that he remembered that when it was wheeled out of the shop at Swindon, the water column arm was too low to pass over the plates and so they had to hurriedly modify the shape with the lower profile around the rear of the tank which we have all come to know as standard. This is given some credence in as much as a good print of drawing 76936 shows the faint outline of this very shape together with a higher lamp bracket where the original shape has been rubbed out and the later shape drawn in. The first of these tenders incidentally were fitted to the castles, one of the earliest being fitted to 5000 in time for its loan to the LMS in 1926. These tenders were undoubtedly the reason why many columns were fitted with cranked arms in later years to raise the height of the bag.

    North Star did carry its higher footplate throughout its life. The trained eye can spot the somewhat deeper Holcroft drop at the front but the real giveaway is that the footplate angle is not reduced in depth over the outside cylinders as is normal with standard Castles.
     
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  11. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I don't think that this can be true. As Bob Meanley points out in his post, if a column arm can reach the centre of one tank, it can reach the centre of another. As for arms not being high enough to go over the extended tender raves, I don't think that this was a problem peculiar to the GWR.
     
  12. Edward

    Edward New Member

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    Mmmm - with zero technological advancement during that whole period! :smt077


    (waits for abuse from Didcot, SVR, etc...)
     
  13. 6880rules

    6880rules New Member

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    Obviously you have not read the said book

    Therefore i suggest you do and you will then be educated in what went on at Swindon between 1912 to 1951

    Once read you may understand what Collect Hawksworth Sam ell and Mr Cook were up to, a lot of testing and improving workshop standards and practises so improving the quality, whilst speeding up overhauls, makes sense to me

    Mr Cook left for the eastern region in later years and sorted out many of the rough riding issues with the pacifics.... by applying Swindon practises

    You will find it a most interesting read

    You will also find the book "Swindon Apprentice" by Durrant is also worth a read
     
  14. Midland Red

    Midland Red New Member

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    Other than that paired with the Great Bear, the only other 8 wheeled tender, in later GWR days, was a version of the Collett 4000 gal tender. This ran paired with a number of Halls and Castles - are there records of which locos?

    Did this tender have a central single water filler, or fillers at each rear corner? Does anyone have a record of the tender number? Were the wheel diameters different from the 'normal' 4000 gal tender? I do wonder what the thinking was for developing this version?

    Thanks for any info - planning to build a Gauge 1 model of this tender.
     
  15. 6880rules

    6880rules New Member

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    I know where the drawings are for the chassis for this tender

    Found them at the NRM when we found the cylinder drawings for the Grange

    I think there is an erecting plan and a framplate drawing

    I would have to look at my lists to know exactly where they are
     
  16. buseng

    buseng Member

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    I saw it behind Hall No. 5904 (it's last loco?).
     
  17. gwr4090

    gwr4090 Member

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    The unique Collett 8-wheel 4000 gall tender no 2586 of 1931 was paired in order with
    5919 5001 5032 5071 5049 5017 6951 5068 4043 4093 4918 5957 6912 6905 5904
    It was withdrawn with 5904 in Nov 1963. Sorry I have no other dates.
    Info comes from RCTS Locos of the GWR (various volumes).

    David
     
  18. Kerosene Castle

    Kerosene Castle New Member

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    If I recall, the tender behind 6024(?) still has a couple of patches rivetted over the old filler positions. Ravingmad Hall is another one with an early 4000 tender, not sure if there are any others.
     
  19. Edward

    Edward New Member

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    Purely from the practical engineman's perspective, Swindon was still churning out locos with the number of corked oiling points in three figures, many very hard to reach, when other companies were using grease lubrication, or experimenting with oil baths. As for footplate ergonomics - just don't go there!
     
  20. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Perhaps more to the point, Swindon was making a profit up until the war, so they must have been doing something right.
     
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