Galatea/Alberta

Perhaps the owner likes red with the BR crest rather than LMS. If I owned Galatea it would have the BR crest but would be painted green 'cos that's how I remember Jubilees from the 50s and 60s. However, I don't own it, the people that do own it have much more knowledge, skill and money than I have and they have put all that to good use and rebuilt Galatea, from the rusting wreck that she was 35-40 years ago, back into a stunning mainline running Jubilee once again. Ok, the livery is unusual for a Jubilee but, even though it would be nice to see it in a guise that it once wore in service, BR or LMS, I personally have no problem with the way it looks today.
If it is a choice between seeing Galatea wearing an 'authentic' livery as a static exhibit in a museum or as she is now hauling nine / ten / eleven coaches over the S&C, then I'll gladly stick with the latter. My comment earlier about West Coast's URL on the tender was meant to be tongue in cheek, but hey, this is the 21st century! Steam locos on the mainline have one or two things they didn't have 50 odd years ago. TPWS, high intensity headlights, 'ship to shore' two way radios, and doesn't Tornado have a mobile phone charger, or is someone having me on about that? The past can be very difficult to recreate accurately so lets just celebrate it when we can and move with the times. There is a generation of onlookers out there for whom LMS or even British Railways means hardly anything, but if they have any interest at all and see a URL somewhere, either on a loco or coaching stock, they just might look it up, get involved and help keep steam alive in the future.

 

Pretty much what I said

Also I wonder how many locos have a gps fitted?!

 

Another factor, I have been told, was the varnish used on the locomotive, both in the make-up of the varnish and the number of coats that were applied.

 

That's my understanding too. I can't remember the numbers, but I recall reading the Midland used almost twice as many coats of paint and varnish as the LMS.

 

Sorry to re-mount my hobby horse, but all this livery authenticity business is nonsense.
No one here is into steam preservation because we want to do an accurate early 1960s historical recreation. We want to play with steam because it is great fun!
None of our passengers are being sold accurate historical recreation either.
On the mainline, everything else is wrong anyway: OHE, Mk 2 train in wrong livery, wrong signals, lineside furniture wrong or missing, wrong kind of track, modern background...
On preserved lines, almost all have the wrong locos and stock (ask Paul H!), stations and stock from different eras, no freight, gift shops, car park full of cars, and ALL lines have trains which are far too full of passengers...
And it's all great - because we are having fun and so are the punters. And it gives a sort of vague old times flavour.
So why worry if one or two of the hundreds of operating locos are in liveries which that particular engine, or even class, never carried?

 

Are you saying that those who strive for accuracy are just wasting their time?

 

I think many of us have forgotten that Bahamas shall be emerging in BR green supposedly. Her group said back at beginning before the overhaul. Each one of the Jubilee shall have a different paint scheme.
45593: LMS red
45596: BR green
45690: BR black
45699: BR red

I think that is fair. Politely ducking for cover now.
Cheers mates

 

Definitely not.

 

No indeed. It's great fun and creates a fine artistic verisimilitude, and can indeed be of educational/historical value. Just let's be relaxed about the occasional lapse in the name of fun.

 

I get owner's prerogative. I honestly do. They put money into their steeds and put them on the mainline for their enjoyment and our benefit. No problem with them picking the liveries.

My objection is owners (of any locomotive) deciding to fictionalise and trivialise those liveries which hard working men for the constituent railway companies and later British Railways painted and looked after with such pride (accepted: until the end of steam).

Because that's exactly what Leander and Galatea currently are doing. Trivialising real and historical liveries through wearing effectively fictional liveries. Leander is perhaps less guilty of this by virtue of the actual livery being worn by other very similar locomotives, but the tender should have British Railways in bold on the tender in cream lettering, not the cycling lion.

Whereas Galatea's livery is totally and utterly fictional. Never applied to her nor any of the other 5XPs.

The working locomotive is part of the overall story and the livery is an important aspect of the whole. Do you think the number of painters, cleaners, crewmen and other railway staff would take pride in seeing their charges painted in inaccurate liveries? I sincerely doubt it. That's why the restoration of the GER Y14 - and its superb livery - ranks as probably the restoration of the year whereas Galatea's return, which should have been just as important, ranks so low.

If a job's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

At the end of the day, people mocked Tony Marchington for painting 60103 as 4472. At least the livery was entirely accurate and had been worn by the locomotive in question: that can never be said about Galatea or Leander.

The Duchess of Sutherland's owning group gets the importance of the livery, as does the A1 trust and many other mainline and preserved railway operators.

 

And you can't have fun and an authentic livery? As I said, it's no more difficult to use a correct livery as it is to make one up.

 

Could have been worse......they could have painted one Canary Yellow and the other Creosote Brown!

 

Oh dear...

Surely the A1 trust can paint it however they want as the thing is brand new!

Livery is both important and not important at the same time...if someone sees Galatea in read at the age of 10 years old and starts a life long interest in steam and railways, preservation has done its work no matter what colour it is. Historical representation?! That youngster will be all over the Internet reading about trains and watching YouTube videos before you can say 'ipad'.

I could tell you all the liveries various locomotives carried at the age of about 10-12 because my interest was sparked...

 

Actually they understand the importance both of the livery choice and the brand image. That's why there's strict restrictions on Tornado's appearance including, but not limited to, not appearing as other members of the A1 class and the fact the core livery is the apple green livery.

Nothing wrong with the colour but why couldn't it have been done with LMS branding and numerals? It would have been more authentic and still colourful thus pleasing everyone and also not trivialising the livery.

If we start mocking people for wanting historical accuracy, then we're not exactly "preserving" or "restoring" are we? It's not even about rivet counting anymore: it's about representing the past accurately and yes, giving the youngsters the initial interest. But let's do it in the right way. You can hardly claim the inauthentic BR red portrayed is better looking than genuine LMS crimson lake with the shaded numerals and lettering? So why the decision to keep her in that livery other than perhaps as has been suggested, cost and owner's prerogative?

 

Not mocking it at all, I think there is balance to be found given the number of authentic engines present...

...bringing it back to Galatea - I quite like the BR maroon, but would like to see her in LMS and BR green in the future.

Part of it as you say has to be the education aspect and this is where icons of steam and several preserved railways do it right - full history of the loco online including livery and other important information - wcr isn't so detailed and this is an aspect they overlook.

Imagine the extra money the could earn if they tidied up carnforth, put in a visitor centre and an observation area inside the sheds to see work going on locomotives, restoration and seeing locos prepped for main line tours...

 

The way I interpreted it was as a 'wind up' for a certain type of 'enthusiast' less than popular with the powers that be at the organisation owning/operating the loco. This forum was awash with speculation about when 5699 would be completed and with 5690 about to be overhauled, an unmissable opportunity was available to keep people guessing which was what.

I am involved in model railways in 4mm:1 foot scale, 18.83mm gauge, P4 standards. Accuracy is NOT a waste of my time! This extends to operating practice, historical research, engineering etc; to replicate as far as is practical and sensible, the prototype at 1:76.2 scale at a given period of time. Needless inaccuracy in 1:1 preservation is naturally irritating: 6100 is therefore now correctly presented for the first time since withdrawal from BR service.

Couldn't agree more

As a general point, to be truly 'authentic', most in-service locos, even before the 1960s would not be in the exhibition finish of what is running on today's railway. Eric Mason in My life with Locomotives (Ian Allan, 1962) observed that LMS goods engines 'looked just as though they had been sprayed with tar', while of 'red' engines, 'of actual paint, there was but little'. Carrying authenticity to that extent would not be a good idea: a balance needs to be struck between style and substance, but without descending into a Disneyfication of what LMS 2968 rightly observes, ended in 1968, by which time it was difficult for the most part to see what colour the locos were!

best wishes,

David

 

My favorite loco this year is Mayflower. Talk about an accurate paint job. Unless I am wrong.

 

Just to wade in for the hell of it, here's my preferred, but highly controversial list of Jube liveries:

45593- BR green with or without yellow stripe
45596- BR green with or without yellow stripe
45690- BR green without yellow stripe (don't think one was applied)
45699- BR green with or without yellow stripe

61306's livery is fine apart from the name, which was originally allocated to 61379.

 

Very accurate, aside from the nameplates. But then the name was carried by a class member so arguably not authentic, but not historically inaccurate for the class B1. 61306 certainly looks terrific in the early BR livery (LNER apple green with BR branding and numbering).

 

Just to put the cat amongst the pidgeons what was the Jinty at Butterly that wore BR lined Red? That suited it rather well!