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FR & WHR & WHHR News

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by AndrewT, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. ghost

    ghost Well-Known Member

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  2. meeee

    meeee Member

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    FR locos were painted green into the 1880s. LT is probably the only engine to be painted red from new. I think there were plenty of better and choices for names to be honest. George Percival Spooner would have been a good one. He basically designed what we now call the traditional Festiniog Fairlie.

    The big point being missed from a financial point is that even if you built a new Earl from scratch it would cost less than JS2. It is just a less complex design. Finances no doubt play a big part in the decision, but it probably has more to do with how it is funded rather than any direct cost comparison.

    The Square isn't largely original at all, it doesn't even run on the original fuel. The tanks have been altered significantly with the addition of coal bunkers as well as new material in the bottom. There were also cosmetic changes in the late 80s and addtional foot steps added. The boiler has been modified. The smokeboxes are from the 90s and the chimneys were made for Merddin in 60s. The dome covers are off two std gauge engines. It spent most of its life on Merddins old bogies not the ones it has now. Inside the cab is totally different especially the firemans side, but even that has seen changes in the past 10 years. There are numerous other modifcations that most people will never see. The loco is 40 years old now. You aren't preserving 1979 Earl of Merioneth, you are preserving the 2018 one. So what exactly are we preserving and why?

    Tim
     
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  3. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Deleted double post
     
  4. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw New Member

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    Am I correct in believing that EoM has one of the two Hunslet boilers that have not aged well by virtue of their design, and that the new JS2 boiler is in fact somewhat cheaper in the long term than sorting out the one on EoM. If so how is a new EoM from scratch cheaper then JS2 please. I am genuinely interested rather than just making a flippant response.
    Regards
    Martin
     
  5. meeee

    meeee Member

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    I'm talking about building a loco from scratch i.e. pretend the the Earl doesn't exist at all. So it would have a new boiler and cradle like JS2, but a superstructure like the Square.

    The design of the superstructure is significantly less complicated. No complex curves, dummy rivets, funny opening cab roof, bells and whistles (literally) to make. It would be more straightforward and take less time to assemble.

    Of course if you actually did this in real life. Then you could take the bits you want off the old engine to put on the new one. Further reducing the cost.

    I could also add that you have one less engine to look after in the long run too.

    Tim
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
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  6. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw New Member

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    Sorry Tim, I obviously misunderstood you. I wonder if all the bells and whistles, generally adornments if you will, represent a significant percentage of the total cost of a JS2 compared to a new EoM, given that the boiler, cradle, and power bogies are expensive. I accept that the shape of the Square is probably cheaper to construct but at the perpetuation of a design enforced by the urgent need and lack of finance available at the time. If those constraints hadn't been there then I think the FR would have built another ME. Whatever ones own personal view of EoM is, pretty it most certainly isn't and whilst I accept accept that finance is always a major factor, crowd pleasing is also and I would suggest that for the majority of it's passengers a pretty Victorian double Fairlie, representing the ethos of all that makes the FR a world pioneer is going to be a better bet than the worst excesses of modernism. I think you and I will disagree on this, and it's neither my engine or my money paying for it but the FR, had it not been so financially constrained after WW1 would have got rid of all the England's, certainly the small ones, and probably replaced ME and JS1, so retaining EoM for a potential future is rather better than scrapping it, which the old FR would have done. I have an immense admiration for what the FR has done since 1954 and when my friend and I walked through Aberglaslyn tunnels in 1974 if you had suggested that I could ride on a train through them thirty or so years later I would have scoffed, yet it's happened. The FR, certainly from my reading of published literature, is a hard nosed organisation that knows it's priorities pretty well, the sidelining of EoM in favour of JS2 will have been done for sound reasons. That's my view anyway
    Regards
    Martin
     
  7. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    Just on that last note - the bogies currently under JS2 are those which were under EoM at withdrawal in 2018, rather than being new-build ones
     
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  8. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    Any nostalgia I have for the Ffestiniog Railway of the 1970s and 1980s would be more than satisfied by seeing one of the current double Fairlies, preferably Myrddin Emrys, in green. I was quite disappointed on the occasion the new Earl of Merioneth turned out to be pulling our train. Or how about a painting DLG green and fitting the Earl's nameplates to it
     
  9. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

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    Personal view, and all that, but I love that Indian Red (if that's what it's called). Looks good on the Talyllyn old stagers, too. Green engines (irrespective of shade) are pretty universal; the red makes a welcome change.
    Not my money, &c., of course.
    Pat
     
  10. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    I think the idea of DLG wearing a different livery has a lot going for it. After all, there are plenty of types of soup.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
     
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  11. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Part of the furniture

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    Personally I never really liked that red as applied to the 'soup dragon' it always reminded me of Massy Ferguson red. Is it a 'traditional' FR colour or was it applied cos someone liked that insipid hue (IMHO) - perhaps when the time comes round again a radical change would be nice?


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  12. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    "Mummy, mummy .... oh look mummy ...... it's Mighty Mac"? :Meh:
     
  13. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Apparently the colour was chosen by the late great Evan Davis who spent his entire working life on the FR, much of it as a staff driver. When the time came to repaint the loco, it was decided to keep it the same colour as a tribute to him. The original colour is a bit deeper and richer, but it tends to fade and become more soupy quite quickly.

    I thought it looked good in grey personally.

    Tim
     
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  14. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    June 27th. Lighting up streamed online 10.00
     
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  15. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Just to elaborate for those not in the know. Welsh Pony will be steamed for first time in over 80 years on Saturday 27th June.

    The event will be live streamed on the FR Facebook at various points during the day and uploaded onto YouTube after.

    Events are as follows.
    Lighting up 10:00
    First whistle 13:00
    First movement 16:00 if all goes well.

    A spectacular painting by Rebecca Kitchen has been commissioned for the occasion, and will be auctioned. All the proceeds going to the Welsh Pony fund. Limited edition prints will also be available.

    Before anyone asks the loco is currently painted in Victorian plum, and will run without nameplates until an event for supporters can be arranged.

    Full details will be posted on the FR Facebook page once everything is set up.

    Boston Lodge remains closed to all but a select group of staff and there will be no public access.

    Tim
     
  16. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    What colour is Victorian Plum?
    My Victoria plums vary from yellow through red to a very bluish purple: sometimes on a single fruit....

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  17. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    I do miss an England in green... And a Fairlie in green....
    Sigh.
    When I make my first million...

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  18. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Well, the green England's just a matter of waiting a few months, so I guess you can keep your powder dry for when Blodge announces the square dance . :)
     
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  19. meeee

    meeee Member

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    It's the black, brown, purple, blue colour the Victorian set is in. It will be painted 60s lined green as a tribute to Allan Garraway, but probably next year now.

    After that who knows. Fully lined Indian Red, Crystal Palace Blue, faded blue, un-lined green would all be suitable for its current condition.

    Tim
     
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  20. 30854

    30854 Part of the furniture

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    Looking at their websites, the official line seems that, following it's initial iteration in (similar) "plum" livery to the curly van, 1950s/60s green will (fittingly) be applied "as a tribute to Allan Garraway".
     
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