If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

FR & WHR & WHHR News

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by AndrewT, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. Mrcow

    Mrcow Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    543
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It would be great to see the Lyd2s out and about. They’re very impressive looking machines.
     
  2. Masterbrew

    Masterbrew New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Staplehurst, Kent
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    What is the problem with ME? It has been out for a couple of weeks, with its turns being taken by a combination of double-headed smaller locos. Is she likely to be back for August? I will be up there then an a double-headed run appeals if they are still happening!
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  3. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    6,558
    Likes Received:
    3,941
    Occupation:
    Design Engineer
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Boiler repairs of a minor (?) nature according to the recent YouTube output. (About 5:50 in)




    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
    30854 and Bluenosejohn like this.
  4. pgbffest

    pgbffest New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2018
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    370
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere with a lot of letters!
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It decided to produce steam from somewhere it shouldn't. Had to wait for the boiler inspector to take a look before any work could commence on a repair. If all goes well Merddin could return to traffic as early as Monday 5th August, but that isn't guaranteed.
     
  5. Masterbrew

    Masterbrew New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2016
    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Staplehurst, Kent
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Thanks for the info. So probably back by the time I go up there
     
  6. pgbffest

    pgbffest New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2018
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    370
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere with a lot of letters!
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    No guarantees, but hopefully!
     
  7. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Just watched Moving Pictures #33 [Link kindly provided by @fergusmacg post #1542 above]. Lots of progress at Blodge, including an piece which explains (to me, at least!) how the reversing gear on Fairlies actually copes with all that relative movement in three planes ..... I had wondered.

    In the piece on Welsh Pony, a thing which surprised me was where the clack valves are placed on the England locos. I'd have thought that thermal stress would be a concern, with cold feed into the area between the outer and inner firebox. Could anyone more knowledgable than I comment on what seems a curious design feature on these early machines?
     
  8. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    2,559
    Occupation:
    UK & Ireland Heritage Railways Webmaster
    Location:
    Ruabon, Wrexham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I think that was a relatively common feature of early locomotive. The science of thermodynamics was not so well understood in those days so they went for what seemed easiest.
     
  9. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Many thanks @mdewell. As you've no doubt twigged, I'm none to conversant with the nuances of earliest design practise, so am guessing the original rationale was to inject water to where it was likely to heat up quickest. The thing surprises me is that the sort of stresses I'd have thought to cause issues evidently didn't, or at least, not excessively so, during the life of the average FR boiler. Perhaps the near all-enveloping saddle tank of the Englands also played it's part in preventing some redesign and perhaps it still does!
     
  10. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    2,438
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Somewhere in the UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The "Small Englands" didn't originally have saddle tanks, though; and none of them are on anything like their original boiler. Welsh Pony was built with a saddle tank but I'm fairly sure will have had the boiler replaced.

    I recommend reading "Little Giants" by Jones & Dennis for detailed information on their pre-preservation history; I might have a look through it myself later to see if the clack location is original.
     
  11. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Cheers @Forestpines . I'm aware-ish of the chronology of these machines. T'was the survival into the 20th century (let alone the 21st!) of such a seemingly weird feed position which had me wondering.

    I believe 'certain elements' still have a hankering after the recreation of an 'original' Small England (perhaps necessitating new name for the Alco?) and others seemingly have hearts set on a new (rebuilt?) Little Giant .... AIUI rather more of this lost loco survives, here and there, than did for Taliesin.
     
    Forestpines likes this.
  12. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,847
    Likes Received:
    2,765
    Festipedia says replacement boilers were fitted in ‘91, ‘15 and, of course, now.
     
    Forestpines likes this.
  13. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Wasn't the boiler fitted to Prince in 1955 actually ordered for one of t'other Englands, shortly prior to the old FRCo. throwing in the towel?
     
  14. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,371
    Likes Received:
    3,973
    Location:
    i.o.m
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I've always understood that it was ordered for Prince (ordered in 1943 but not delivered until 1945) which was why the overhauled? 'bottom end' was in the erecting shop ready to receive it. Unfortunately the shutdown occurred before the boiler could be fitted. As there was a need for one Fairlie and one England I assume that the idea was for Prince to replace Princess in traffic.
    Ray.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
  15. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Have to admit (not that I was there at the time), I thought it was for Welsh Pony ..... Ray could easily be right tho'. Pity there was no pressing need for a single Fairlie back then too!
     
  16. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    2,438
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Somewhere in the UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'm fairly sure the boiler fitted to Prince in 1955 was ordered for Prince. The railway did actually try to sell it on in 1946 but luckily didn't manage to.

    Edit: Little Giants confirms that the railway started by getting a quote for repairing Prince's boiler in 1938, but Adamsons, the supplier, said it should be condemned. That led to the procurement of the replacement boiler after a few years correspondence, but the railway did also investigate the costs of getting Welsh Pony's firebox repaired

    I did have a quick skim through "Little Giants" last night but didn't see anything about feed placement. It does reproduce the specification drawings for the replacement boilers of some locos including Welsh Pony, but I am not enough of an engineer to read the drawing sufficiently well to tell if the feed position is marked.

    Interestingly though the spec for the first three engines did state that all of the cocks fitted to the boiler - which may have included clacks - must be removable without disturbing the lagging. That may well also have had a bearing on their location.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
    Bluenosejohn, marshall5 and 30854 like this.
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    @marshall5 Well, there we go Ray. You're right .... I'm wrong. :)

    Very illuminating final paragraph and I'd bet a few working in today's shops and sheds would appreciate such consideration by loco designers!
     
  18. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,371
    Likes Received:
    3,973
    Location:
    i.o.m
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It's not a matter of who's right and who's wrong the important thing is that things like this are discussed and the actual history is recorded. Very soon none of the people involved in the earliest days of preservation will still be around and all we will have is the written record.
    As regards the earlier question about the placement of the boiler feed. I am not familiar with the reason for the clack placement on the Englands but on Marshall traction engines the injector clack was low down on the side of the outer firebox and would have delivered a 'jet' of relatively cold water straight on to the inner box if it were not for a deflector which turned the feed through 90 degrees up towards the crown. ISTR that on most locos with backhead mounted clacks there was a carry forward pipe to deliver the cooler water away from the firebox area. Happy to be corrected on this if I've got it wrong.
    Cheers,
    Ray.
     
    Forestpines, Jamessquared and 30854 like this.
  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    @marshall5 Have just checked (the always reliable*) Boyd ..... and it seems I got confused by the statement about the Adamson boiler, as ordered, and Prince's acquisition of Welsh Pony's weigh shaft. It seems both locos were stripped down at the same time, under the ancien régime and said component was allegedly fitted arsey farcey (is that possible?), leading to 'knocking' in full gear on restoration in 1955. That'll teach me not to rely on my memory without double checking. :(

    * in the ironic sense of the phrase
     
  20. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,371
    Likes Received:
    3,973
    Location:
    i.o.m
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I've just re-read my copy of Boyd and he states (p355) that Prince acquired Little Giant's weighbar shaft "as they were stripped down at the same time early in the War". This doesn't add up as on p384/5 he states that Palmerston acquired LG's boiler barrel in 1932 so, presumably it was already stripped down at that time, however Prince was still in traffic until 1937. Of course he may have meant that Prince was stripped down early in the war and bits of the already stripped down Little Giant migrated to Prince. It's interesting to look back on the history of these locos. I know some folks doubt the accuracy of some of Boyd's work but at least he tried to record the information before it was lost for ever.....and he was a real gentleman.
    Ray.
     

Share This Page