FR & WHR & WHHR News

That and the webcams broke

 

First concrete pour for the wave wall footings took place yesterday. You're not missing much by not seeing it live.

 

A bit more interesting: NG/G16 138 on another running-in turn with 87 at Dinas on Tuesday...
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NG/G16 138 did its first running in turn to Porthmadog yesterday, double heading a charter train with 143.

 

Metropolitan Railway Carriage 353's underframe was taken on a gauging trial over Britannia Bridge this morning to check clearances before next week's assembly of the completed vehicle and departure for London.

The finished carriage is, quite simply, awesome...

 

Beautiful job. A bit more info here ... Met 353 - London Transport Museum

 

Is that underframe a new build to original drawings or the remains of a scrapped wagon?

Regards

 

The original would have been wood sandwiched with steel plates. This underframe is an Southern Railway CCT I think. It has been shortened and modified to resemble the original, including new steel headstocks made look like the wooden ones, and correct pattern buffers. It has also been dual braked and fitted with steam heat. LT drew the line at fitting ETH though!

Last i heard it was a week behind schedule but when it is finished (which will be soon), I'm sure it will give the standard gauge folks something to aim for.

 

Yes that's what I thought it was. Victorian four and six wheel carriages had very much more sophisticated suspensions than goods vehicles and using a goods vehicle as the basis for a 'restoration' simply isn't right. No loco restorer would make that sort of error, and I can't understand why the same rigour isn't applied by C&W people.

Sorry to be negative, I'm sure the body is stunning, but there is no way I would trust my back to such a suspension and it looks awful.

Regards

 

Sorry but Southern PMVs are not wagons they are passenger rated vans. The majority of 4 wheel coaches in use today PMV underframes, the 6 that are in use on the Isle of Wight are all on PMV underframes.

The original 9 leaf springs are changed to 6 or 7 leaf springs to give a softer ride.

 

Slight correction the donor vehicle was SR PMV 1746

This coach dates from 1892, how sophisticated do you think the running gear was back then? Seeing as in the uk rail vehicle suspension remained quite similar for 100's of years!

The suspension in the donor vehicle was designed to run in passenger trains and has formed the basis of many 4 wheeled coach restorations up and down the country with no issues. LTM have also been working with Institute of Railway Research at Huddersfield University who are experts in rail vehicle dynamics.

It is worth noting that goods vehicle suspension systems have to be quite sophisticated to cope with the large variation in weight between an empty and a loaded wagon. Do a bit of research and you will see the modern freight bogie isn't as simple as it looks.

 

Passenger rated vans were rated to run in passenger trains not to carry passengers. There is a difference.

There are a few Victorian four and six wheelers surviving in preservation on their original suspensions. The Buckingham Railway Centre has three such from the LC&DR, MS&LR and the GNR. Go and have a look and a ride and then compare and contrast with the PMV based restorations on the IoW and Bluebell.

It can be done: it has been done; the WLLR has three utterly superb new-build replica carriages.

Regards

 

With respect were're not talking here about the modern freight bogie.

Running gear for passenger four and six wheelers in the Victorian era was good deal more sophisticated than the goods vehicles of any era up to the comparatively modern say the last forty years.

As for the issues of having these conversions. They are extremely hard running and they just don't look right to anyone who has made a study of the subject. The real reason these conversions from PMVs were made was one of cost and historical accuracy went out of the window because of that. As I have said above, it has been done; it can be done.

 

It's not just the underframes that affect ride quality though, is it? The seats, and the quality of the track, also have a bearing on such matters. If you don't believe me, take a ride on LCDR 114 and LBSC 661 on the Bluebell, which are worlds apart in ride comfort, but have near-identical underframes based on PMVs. The difference is basically in the seats.

As for vehicles running on original underframes: there is a difference between a vehicle which has somehow survived with an original underframe, suitably restored; and a vehicle which was grounded and for which a new underframe has to be made. There are I believe discussions behind the scenes amongst carriage restorers about trying to devise a new, but more authentic looking, design for 4 and 6 wheel underframes which can be used in such restorations. But that is a considerable piece of design and would, as I understand it, need a process of approval from a suitable VAB, all of which costs money and would probably only be of interest to (and therefore fundable by) maybe half a dozen restoration groups around the country who are actively pursuing Victorian coach bodies. So are you offering to help fund such design work?

Tom

 

From the same people who restored Met 353.

 

Yes, but sometimes restoration is the art of the possible rather than the art of the desirable. Given the choice between a grounded body which can be restored to make a commercially viable vehicle if it runs on a PMV underframe; or the same vehicle which lies abandoned because the costs of designing and building a historically authentic underframe means the whole project is unaffordable, which would you rather see?

We'd all like to be purists, but surely in some cases it is better to have a vehicle actually running, but on a non-authentic underframe, than see the same vehicle rot because no one was prepared to make that compromise? As for authenticity - for the fare paying passenger, I suspect most are unaware of what is going on under their feet once they climb into the compartment. So would you deny them that experience of Victorian travel just bceause the underframe is actually from the 1950s? And where do you stand on brakes - should that authentic Victorian restoration also encompass vehicles without continuous automatic brakes?

Tom

 

Quite right. Although, yes, it would be nice to be able to build more authentic underframes (especially for the six-wheelers!), I'd much rather see a vintage coach running on a PMV underframe than continuing to rot away for lack of funds to build a proper chassis. Besides, Joe Public is not likely to notice the difference.

 

I have to confess that the S&DJR six-wheeler the WSR has just out-shopped looks great! Six wheel underframes, however, are as rare as rocking horse.... you know!

Foxy