Forgotten "preserved" Steam engines

This page Locomotives formerly resident on the Watercress Line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia would suggest that the green one was Slough Estates No.3

 

The red one was probably Bagnall 2842 now at the Foxfield Railway and back in traffic after an extensive restoration.

Bagnall No2

Slough Estates No.3 was last at the Swindon and Cricklade railway but is not listed on their website at the moment.

 

And how much of that was actually LNER built? Pretty safe bet the boiler wasn't original for instance. So the presence or absence of a random boiler from some other builder doesn't really make that much difference...

 

The one at Chabowka is owned by PKP and is subject to transfer to the local authority, If they ever agree a price, it requires a new steel firebox, back in 2008 an assessment was done as regards returning to working order. The estimate was 100k euros, including the new firebox. A sponsor however was not forth coming.

The one at Jaworzna Slaska is not in as good condition, it Is privately owned, I believe maybe by someone in the UK, however good luck getting an export permit for it.
No steam locomotive has been exported from Poland for several years as they are now protected monuments... So 3 have been scrapped, hundreds rot, 75% of one museums collection was scrapped by its own curator and another has been stuck on a Pole pointing to the sky... Oh and another, from Chabowka was actually offered by Pkp in an online auction to raise funds for the Warsaw opera.
Currently (unofficially) only Poles are able to successfully conclude a purchase from PKP. If you buy private... Get your wallet ready and expect a line of people all queuing up for a piece of the action... Threatening the gas axe if they don't get it and I know of one case where they used it... Then asked for a hand out to stop the rest
(there's a member on here with a tkt tank they would like to sell, and another place which has 3 to pick from in store..)

The current mantra is to seek private sponsorship for repaints. If you suggest buying to restore, you'll get the inpolite eastern European brush off from PKP, there's only 2 operator's of steam in Poland, one they can't get rid of and one that won't go away.
It's not all as rosy as it seems.

 

That is a weird position from the Poles,afterall I doubt there would be a mass exodus of their locos since the German steam types are well represented in preservation across Europe and the Turks can seem to shift theirs to preservation.

Playing devils advocate, how hard would it be to load it up and take it over the German border before they realise its gone? Not that it would be a workable solution. It seems a shame that a Brit owned and built loco is stuck here it is not appreciated and cannot be returned to somewhere where it would be respected.

...Moving back to the 8Fs can anyone involved confirm or deny that there are movements afoot to repatriate parts from the soon to be scrapped 8f? It seems a shame to let kit like the boiler go when we are now 1 boiler down here.

 

There's a documented case of an industrial steam shunter being bought from a polish scrap yard by a Czech preservationst and loaded it up to take away... It was impounded at the Czech border.

I personally can tell you of an ol49, mechanically complete being sold for scrap for 7000 euro..... They refused the sale to the foreigner because it was politically embarrassing (or maybe a bribe wasn't paid).. So it was scrapped for 4000 euro, giving he discount to the scrappies as he had the cost of scrapping onsite and carting it away..., it was exported in cut up bits to Slovakia anyway. That was seen as political success... In 2005/6.

Steam is a national embarrassment in Poland, it is seen as a sign of communism, back in the 90's they thought foreigners were mad and sold them freely for hard currency...
In the 2000's they have become eye sores because those that fight to save them don't have funds to restore them but have a strong international ear to stop them being scrapped.
However accepting foreign help is also seen as a national embarrassment... Catch 22.
So they rot.... Forgotten... Over 250 all over Poland.

It's very frustrating for the Germans... There are some quite unique gems built in Germany and retained by Poland after the 1945 border shift...sitting rotting when there isn't even an equivalent preserved in Germany... But the poles won't sell and aren't keen to restore with foreign money... Unless your really paying the right people.
I doubt if Wolstyn today could pull off the restoration of the pm36 as they did 10 Or so years ago.

The German equivalent of an A4 streamlined 4-6-2 resides in Poland .. Still streamlined.. There are none in original condition in Germany..here's a page about it... It's condition is no longer anywhere as good as this picture last time I saw it, though t has to be said it is way better than some, it is after all in the national collection, stored outside in Warsaw since around 1980... It's mostly paint on rot now.

http://www.locomotives.com.pl/Express Steam Locomotives/Pm3.htm
http://www.holdys.pl/tomi/index.php?desc=on&par=pm3-5

 

Thank you very much foor your interesting post! That is a sad state of affairs, I wonder whether there could be anyway of exerting pressure at a higher political level to try and get "our" loco out.... although I suspect that if steam engines are regarded as a national embarassment it would be a dead end.

Is there anyway I could find a list of the unique German locos trapped on the wrong side of the border? It seems to be an interesting, if sad, area to look at.

 

This is the definitive list of steam in Poland

http://www.holdys.pl/tomi/index.php?wykaz=1435

As for state.. "eksponat" is on display, "pomnik" is the same but better condition, "czynny" is operational.
The word "wrak" speaks for itself..

The two liberations are Tr202-19 and Tr202-28.

If I remember correctly the chabowka one sits on an original WD 8 wheel tender frame, the Jaworzyna one sits on an S160 bogie chassis.

 

Thanks for that, I think I'll be spending a wee while on there. The one at Jaworzyna doesn't look unpresentable just a little tired, from the 2007 photo, hopefully it is no worse.

 

An engine I recently found reference to is this one:

East Somerset Railway Rolling Stock - 'Rhodesian Railways 4-8-0 no.390'

I had no idea of the presence of this one. It says it is on display outside the Empire and Commonwealth museum in Bristol (not that I can remember seeing it last time I passed by). It would be interesting to find out where it is and where the Carriages it came over with are.

 

Trouble is the paint hides the underneath condition, at Wolstzyn last year I used ty1-76 as a vantage point on to find the plate work on the cab, roof, boiler cladding and running frames was rotten through.. I could have put my fist through the tender tank without punching it...Needless to say I found another to sit on instead. It's mostly wheels, boiler, frames and cylinder.. Everything else is as soft as painted cardboard making it look better than it is..unfortunately many are that way, not all though. Still Barry proves it can be restored in the UK, so same would be true here.
The lack of copper means prices are substantially lower... It becomes 100 tons of Scrap rusted steel.

 

As I remember, and I may be wrong in a few details, but these are earmarked for display at the NRM, as representatives of our railway building in the empire. I believe that the loco is at Tyseley being cosmetically overhauled, and I think that the carriages went to Appleby for similar work.

 

Ah a shame I suppose as is true with cars paint can hid a myriad of horrors. That site with the polish locos on makes grim reading for any German rail enthusiasts there seems to be tonnes of pre-war (WW1) kit stuck in Poland as well as others. Hopefully, even if it is in awful condition, one of the liberations will eventually make it across.

Thats good to hear that the Rhodesian kit is going to make it to the NRM, I only discovered it after browsing someones snaps of Shildon which showed a "Rhodesian tender" which I assumed was just passing through for a paint job or somesuch and did some digging which said it belonged to the E&C Museum. It would be nice if some of the EE gear that is being retired in Africa and elsewhere could be brought in as well, but thats for another thread.

It would be interesting to try and compile a list of the foreigners over here like the South African Garratt and co, as forgotten locos go the steam engines from far away seem to be amongst the most "forgotten".

 

Just to add to the earlier discussion here is a pic of the 'Model', as it was known, in a drivers' instruction class:
Black Country History

And a 1980s article from the Wolverhampton Railway Gazette, including a detailed plan and more pictures:
The Wolverhampton Railway Gazette

I hope enough remains at Armley Mills to restore the Model some day. It would still be useful for training as well as being a wonderfull exhibit for any museum.

 

I did wonder reading this thread if they were refering to the Stafford Road Improvement class engine.
I remember this being at Shugborough Hall outside the shed where the North Stafford tank was stored (amongst others).
so it must have left at the time of the NS Tank. how the dickens did it get to Leeds,
I thought it hade gone to Tysley. I also thought it used to be an 0-4-2 not an 0-6-0.
When it was at Shugborough the rods were on and the inside motion, and the operating handwheel was still there and it was freed up and oiled by me and other members of the RPS ( now Chaswewater )so that it operated

The Melter

 

There is an Industrial Saddletank, that I am not sure of the origins, or maker in East Carlton park near Corby- All I know is that it was supposedly one of the furnace engines. It used to have some information with it but in recent times this has gone and the loco becomes increasingly decrepit. It looks to have most of its motion as I had a climb about in/pn it over new year, but all brass/copper and cab fittings have gone (no surprises) Pretty well all of the platework on the cab is very rotten, as are areas of the running plates.
Its quite a sad site, I remember being able to climb on it and enjoy it when I was younger,but due to its worstening condition its now fenced off, and is just slowly rotting into the ground.

Would be nice to see it saved, although i dont know whether anyone would be interested due to its current state, I suspect it will just end up going 'too far' and getting scrapped.

Chris

 

I think this is the loco you are referring to (Hawthorn Leslie 3827/1934). It can also be seen here
Sister loco 3837/1934 was recently moved from behind Leatherhead leisure centre and is to be restored to working order at the Lavender line, both locos look to be in a similar condition.

Hope this helps


Keith

 

Just had a read up on the leatherhead engine, I think your right they are of the same type. Have had a look at some pictures, and sadly I would also probably say that the east carlton one (based on looking at what you can actually see!) is probably in a poorer external state.

 

They are indeed of the same class,and same batch supplied to the then new Stewarts and Lloyds Corby Plant as internal works shunters as opposed to locos working the adjoining iron ore fields. Both 3827 and 3837 are in very poor condition. Only 3931 based on the Ribble Steam Railway stands any chance of steaming in the short term unless 3837 receives a lot of financial assistance. I believe the boys at Rutland were keeping an eye on 3827. Lets hope it moves there to a safer home.

 

Hello Matthew,
Apologies for the delay in replying to the post having only just joined the sight. You are right about the MBRO Wilkinson Patent steam loco at Crich. At present it is in our off site store with the parts being catalogued. There are a number of parts missing and a report is being done at the moment to show what it would take to get the engine working again, towing a trailer. The biggest hurdle is money and putting the infrastructure in place at the museum for steam operation, as we are predominatly electric operation.
Hope this answers some of your questions. If you have any photos of the engine at Ince Forge, Crewe Loco works or Dinting I would be grateful for a copy.
Best regards
Andy Bailey, Assistant Mechanical Engineer