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Flying scotsmans name plate for sale

Discussion in 'Railwayana' started by fish7373, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. fish7373

    fish7373 Member Friend

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    [​IMG]
    GW Railwayana Auctions Ltd
    Auction house
    GW Railwayana Auctions Ltd
    15 July at 12:59 ·
    G.W. Railwayana Auctions are pleased to announce that we have been instructed by a private vendor to auction the original right hand side nameplate from FLYING SCOTSMAN perhaps the most iconic and famous locomotive in the World today. The Current locomotive carries reproduction nameplates as both originals were removed circa 2001 by the then private owner. #flyingscotsman #famoussteamlocomotive #sirnigelgresl
     
  2. Mandator

    Mandator Member

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    By rights should go for an astronomical price but with all these things if there is no solid provenance! Trouble is with all these famous names there are "multiple" originals.!!!!
     
  3. 3855

    3855 Member

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    safer to have a cheap replica.....!
     
  4. DTGNZ

    DTGNZ New Member

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    There's an "Original" here in New Zealand , Ive seen it!!
    The owner tells me for Flying Scotsmans tour of the USA there were a second set of nameplates cast. At regular intervals the plates were taken off the loco for cleaning and polishing and the other set fitted. By the time things were getting desperate for Mr Pegler , a close friend of his , with the typically upper class name of "Jumbo" came over to the USA to help . When the tour finally failed and having no funds left , Mr Pegler presented Jumbo with a Nameplate for his support . Jumbo's interest was in Vintage Cars - Bentleys . He knew a New Zealand Bentley owner who was also a collector of all sorts of things . And that how an "Original" Flying Scotsman plate comes to be on the other side of the world. By the way the original Flying Scotsman {The Locomotive] has been in New Zealand as well !!! . The ship carrying it back from Australia berthed here to unload cargo.
     
  5. Mandator

    Mandator Member

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    I'm afraid heresay is not evidence of originality. A collector or investor will want absolute proof with a plate such as this. A receipt from Alan Peglar or photographic evidence of some sort might alleviate concerns but a narrative will not do. The story above might be absolutely true but won't placate a purchaser.
     
  6. DTGNZ

    DTGNZ New Member

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    Placating a purchaser not an issue as I didnt say it was for sale. I'd imagine it will stay in the family. No doubt there are still members of the crew involved with the USA tour who can shed some light on this "heresay" . Personally having known this gentleman for over 30 years there is no question as to his integrity.
     
  7. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    What provenance does it have - other than this anecdote?
     
  8. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    So if they were changed that regularly how can you tell which of the 4 name plates were carried in LNER/BR days and, which are the after preservation cast ones and, can you tell them apart as without been able to tell how do you know who has what and the original which will be worth the money and the new casts which will be worth a lot less.
     
  9. Mandator

    Mandator Member

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    Sorry, didn't quite make myself clear. Was talking generally about Railwayana and the need for provenance although I agree it didn't come across that way. The problem your acquaintance or their family will have is in the future if they do decide to sell.
    Replacement plates are a bit of a hoary old chestnut. Many are supposed to exist to replace those that fell off Locos in service but I am sceptical. Nameplates were bolted on to backplates or bodywork pretty firmly
    Drivers and cleaners polishing them would notice loose bolts although at the end of steam standards slipped. I imagine that is why Management ordered removal of plates and safe storage at the end.
    Collectors generally want to know that they own the nameplate that was carried for the majority of the Locos life rather than a replacement. That said where the loco name changed or details on the plate changed and was officially sanctioned then that seems ok. Eg. Royal Scot, Western Legionnaire etc
    Smokebox plates are a different matter. As these identified the Loco so replacements may well have been cast and in fact photographic evidence does exist of replacement castings (showing slight differences in typeface [or font if you prefer]) but I suspect even replacements are uncommon.
     
  10. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    If and when someone really needs to know, metallurgical analysis of a small sample from the back and comparison with other original and replica plates might help. But FS has had so many replacement parts over the years, with very little of the original still existing, that even the NRM might not care whether the nameplates are the originals.
     
  11. Mandator

    Mandator Member

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    Metallurgical analysis might prove the metal has the correct constituents and of appropriate age but wont prove provenance of course. As replica nameplates etc. have been around since the or earlier even metallurgical analysis might be of little use unless comparison with an original can be made.
     
  12. ross

    ross Member

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    So, how much can metallurgic analysis prove?
    Can it date when a nameplate was cast? When it was last melted?If I obtained a pile of old locks, for example, from victorian to ww1 age, took out all the brass levers, and cast them into a Flying Welshman nameplate, would analysis date it at approx 1900 or approx 2018??
    The science of forensic analysis of materiels is so much beyond my education it seems miraculous
     
  13. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Comparison with a sample from a know genuine plate would establish if the plates were cast from the same batch of metal. Especially from that era, no two batches would be exactly the same.
     
  14. derobeck

    derobeck New Member

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    ...and thereby hangs the whole problem.

    Find a genuine 'Flying Scotsman' plate to do the comparison. It is known that the original plates of 'Flying Scotsman' (from date of build) were replaced by the LNER because early A1/A3 plates were known to fracture through footplate vibration. The plate offered for sale is of the style of a replacement nameplate with the additional strengthening. The original plates from 1923 would, almost certainly, have been melted down and recycled - not kept for posterity. It would also be likely that the replacement plate was cast when the loco was in Doncaster Works for some level of repair probably in the 1930s. That means that it is highly probable that no other nameplates were cast at the same time and as brass is an alloy, the next production of brass could never guarantee to be the same as the last.

    A few of the original (non-modified) plates did last to the end of the locos life, and plates from most of the other locos are known to exist, but they would not have been cast from the same 'batch' of brass as the plate being offered for sale.

    So we either accept the narrative offered by GWR Auctions that this is one of the plates sold by Marchington and is as original as it gets, or you can chase your tail looking for an original or believe stories of multiple versions being cast and they are to be found all over the world.

    Probably best not to risk spending the £40k+ that the plate would be expected to get at auction and if you really want an A3 plate spend between £8k and £10k on one of the other class members that dont have the same provenance questions.
     
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  15. DTGNZ

    DTGNZ New Member

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    No doubt GWR Auctions Plate is the real thing , At the very least it has been fitting to Flying Scotsman at some stage during its working career.
    But thats not to say that the one here in New Zealand has not also been fitted to Flying Scotsman during its working career.
    As I suggested someone who was actually involved with crewing the train in the USA would be able to confirm or disprove the story.
    Personally I,m certainly not interested in spending that sort of money on a plate . I sold my collection years ago when I realised It was much more forfilling it puting the money in preserving real locomotives . Interesting some of those locomotives have carried replacement plates fitting post preservation for longer than their original plates were carried in mainline service.
     
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  16. Mandator

    Mandator Member

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    Whilst you are probably right, GWR auctions being able to assure the plate is genuine, don't always assume Auction Houses get it right. I have know occasions when items sold were later found to be iffy and have myself had doubts about some items on offer.
    I come back to a previous thread regarding shed plates. I saw newly cast ones being sold at a preservation site manufactured courtesy of the local foundry. Painted up then and now 40 years down the line... mmmmm.
    It was said to me that some SAR museums will allow you to place an order for a nameplate and it will be cast overnight ready for you to take home as a nice pressy. An apocryphal story I agree but perhaps someone can verify.
     
  17. fish7373

    fish7373 Member Friend

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    YES they was once on the loco i take them off for Tony Marchington at the overhaul at southall The ones on the loco are Procast ones we had photos sent to us with old paint and marks on them which we identified them as the ones.
     
  18. Mandator

    Mandator Member

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    Thanks for the affirmation. However there are dodgy items out there and as I said previously provenance is everything. Obviously you have, in this case, provided some provenance for the buyer.
     
  19. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    A few years ago 50044 Exeter had a new set of nameplates made, using the original pattern they were carried by on the loco for a few years, does this make them genuine or not? Where do you draw the line?
     
  20. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    But you are not adding any concrete proof as you don't know whether the one in question is actually one that you took off all those years ago.
     

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