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Flying Scotsman

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. RogueCloud

    RogueCloud New Member

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    What relevance does that have? How could an examination of the loco at Tyseley tell you how the loco performed over the S&C (and many other routes) in the 80's and 90's? I'm just saying what I, and many others, witnessed during that period and that was that Scotsman was a perfectly capable mainline performer with a single chimney.

    I'm not arguing that it's not a better performer in double chimney guise. All I'm saying is that the NRM could take it back to single chimney form (if they wanted for aesthetic / marketing purposes) and it would still be a perfectly capable mainline performer. Anyone old enough to have seen it running in single chimney form knows this to be the case. We've seen it first hand.

    Perhaps Tyseley's judgment was clouded by their experience with the Castle's where Nunney has had a fair few problems out on the mainline, while Earl of Mount Edgcumbe has been a revelation? If I thought of Scotsman in those terms, I'd be recommending a double chimney. But, an A3 is not a Castle.
     
  2. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Probably because leaving it as it was offered the most economic solution in the context of the other collossal expenditure that was actually deemed essential rather than merely potentially desirable.
     
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  3. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture Friend

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    I think Peter Townend is still with us - it was Dick Hardy who left us.
     
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  4. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    You may well be right - and I hope so! Mr Townend a true legend in ECML circles.

    For some reason that escapes me, I always get him and Mr Grafton mixed up when I am writing online - they're both "Peter".

    One of the few times I have shed tears this last year was when I saw the obituary in one of the railway mags. Very sad.
     
  5. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Agree with all of that, well put.
     
  6. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    I think a 93 year Peter Townend is still very much with us. Misremembering? Where did that come from? I think you mean incorrect
     
  7. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    John, we have established this.

    However on the use of the word "misremembering" - which was quite correct, I might add:

    Hence "I may be misremembering".

    Perfectly valid use of the English language.
     
  8. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture Friend

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    IIRC I saw him at Darlington not so long ago (where I'm headed on Saturday :))

    Doesn't Top Shed make any reference to the final arrangements of the A3?
     
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  9. Eightpot

    Eightpot Part of the furniture

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    Yes it does.
     
  10. MikeParkin65

    MikeParkin65 Member

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    Australia is probably one of the few places left where a proper King is still 'in gauge'! :)
     
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  11. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    Sorry, but everything railtour promoters tell us is that it the 'Premium' market that is strongest, no doubt in part due to the level of even 'non-premium' fares. All mainline trips are hugely restrictive in their market on cost ground, except the likes of The Jacobite or Scarborough Spa Express and I doubt you will see 4472/60103 on either of those!

    Given that even preserved railway trips are charged at massive premiums, there seems to be no ethical considerations for the National Collection about making a chance to ride behind the loco bought with a massive public appeal affordable.....

    Steven[/QUOTE]
    Indeed, the preserved line visits have been at significant premia - but nothing like the same scale as a premium mainline trip ticket. That says to me that there may be a limit on the willingness of the NRM to limit accessibility to the general public.


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  12. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    The argument Tom cogently makes is that any era being portrayed is authentic within the history of the loco. By common consent apple green 4472 is the most recognised livery and it ran this way whilst fitted with double chimney and deflectors. If I read Tom's interpretation correctly, it would therefore be authentic for it to be seen this way again to facilitate the preferred colour?
    I doubt the NRM would wish to see that particular less than glorious phase of the A3s life recalled though, even if the policies allowed for such a historical interpretation. If the form dictates the historical livery applied, it is only correct with double chimney as it currently appears. Thus by extension, if an apple green period us sought the NRM would be bound, I fear, to refit the single chimney. I am doubtful that money would be found to effect such an alteration which would probably be quite costly. My bet would be BR green remaining on those grounds, its just a pity most people need to see the nameplate to know it is in fact Flying Scotsman. When it is 4472, nobody needs to see the nameplate and I think that is the truest guide to the most appropriate form it should have.
     
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  13. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Young Child to youngish dad as Applegreen Flying Scotsman chuffs past - ' Dad, its that the Flying Scotsman train'
    Reply... Nah son its wrong colour, its that Tornado one.

    But I am with the Apple Green Camp, and not bothered how many orifices it has - we know enough about draughting now to steam it well enough and keep the blast sharp enough to not need Smoke deflectors. Castle is not an A3 - try suggesting that for safety reasons a double chimney castle should have smoke deflectors...
     
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  14. dan.lank

    dan.lank Member

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    I think the colour thing is overblown if I’m honest. I reckon most normal punters won’t really expect the loco to be Apple green or Brunswick, or mid-chrome, or anything - they just know it’s Flying Scotsman and that’s enough hype.

    When FS visited the Bluebell, I can’t tell you how many times I was tagged on Facebook from local friends who’d gone to see it go past - all hugely excited, and not the slightest comment about the colour being right or wrong.

    My in-laws own a farm which borders the line, and hosted a picnic for 30 of their friends to see the engine going past. None of them were rail enthusiasts per se (apart from me), but the level of excitement in everybody was huge. Again, not the slightest bit of surprise about the colour.

    In fact the only negative comment was about how pathetic the whistle was (and I’m inclined to agree!)

    I honestly think the only people that have any expectations of the colour are us lot...

    [​IMG]


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  15. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    I would suggest the latest 'fans' know it is Flying Scotsman because they have been told it is in town and it has a nameplate to confirm status. If you showed otherwise identical images of the loco without nameplate, one as 4472 apple green and the other as currently 60103, the vast majority would identify 4472 as Flying Scotsman of the two.
     
  16. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    Does it really matter? If you tell them that it's current configuration is how it was towards the end of it's service then they will have learnt something. What is all the nonsense about branding, it's not a brand it's an historic locomotive. Anyone who bought mugs with 4472 on them can now go back and buy an up to date one.
     
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  17. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture Friend

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    In all of this - paint, chimneys, whatever, surely the most important thing is to GET RID OF THAT BLOODY WHISTLE!! I can't believe that it meets the safety requirements?
     
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  18. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Part of the furniture

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    Possibly, but in this day and age with all the hype is it likely they'll come across 60103 without being told it's Flying Scotsman anyway?
     
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  19. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Given the iconic status the loco has, I think it ought to be presented in a manner which speaks for itself, no further explanation necessary and certainly no need to look for a nameplate to tell anyone what is before their eyes. I fully respect why the loco is painted the way it is at the moment but I do hope to see it in its 'customary' form one day too.
     
  20. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture Friend

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    How many other engines are running in BR Green with Witte smoke deflectors, out of curiosity?
     
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