Flying Scotsman

Okay, so lets get a few things sorted here first. Not all the engines you mention have had Heritage lottery funding and indeed some that have sadly have had other faults since delaying their use to the general public. Engines like 6100, 60007 which have been given HLF funding have had complications. If Scotsman has some then its not just from the HLF that funding has come from. Others you mention did not recieve funding from the HLF. Look at the likes of 60009 which certainly hasnt, while 60163 didnt get any. 60532 Blue Peter might have asked for some, but has not recieved funding and lies dormant following the end of its Partnership agreement with NELPG.

My point about Northern engines comes from two things. First, as I tried to imply, its the enthusiasts that really overlook a great number of Northern achievements and railway heritage. Thank God NELPG did something about it otherwise there would be nothing left. Engines like 65033 like forlorn and abandoned, thanks in part to bad management in their preservation history, but also due to few others knowing about them. While Southern areas of the kingdom have basked in the glory and attention of the railway fraternity and Barry giving them time for preservation to really buy what was there, the north was not so fortunate. This is my second point. While history was cruel to us up north, (as in the North East proper and not Yorkshire with its by eck talk...) HLF would be a godsend for the projects that need help and cash to bring their projects to completion. When you look at those engines remaining there are, 4 A4's, 1 A3, 1 A2 and now one rebuilt A1. Theres two B1's, but only one B12. Theres no B16, 17... Only a D17 made it to the NRM, while the SRPS got just 1 D49. Theres one J21 in bits, and one J15. But no J39 - theres no L1, V1, V3 tank engine. Theres only one K1 or K4. Theres no K3. Theres one Q6, J27 and J72 in the care of NELPG with their K1. All in all the Eastern region heritage ammounts to a total of pretty much one surviour out of classes of hundreds. Compare this with those who Barry by fortune found examples of and things look a lot different.

Eastern preservation means more emptius and relavence is attached to those few engines that remain. They become more important because they are left and we that are interested crave such diversity. Many would adore the chance of four B1's lined up with a Q6, and B16. But that now will never happen. It means that Eastern engines should get more attention and recognition for preserving what little we have left compared to that where many vie for the same title of being the best remaining Castle class, or Black 5 left.

As this thinking then gets attached to Scotsman the historical legacy takes this to a whole new dimension. Flying Scotsman is the most notorious engine in locomotive history (no matter what Tornados fanatics might say or want you to believe). As such it takes on an even greater importance of being an example of what remains. The fact that it means so much justifies the ammount spent on it thus far and the ammount needed to get it back to an operational standard and should be better than others on the network. I belive the NRM can do this, now more than ever after the investigations and contract out for the overhaul which should have been done first time anyway.

The goal and justification is simple. Flying Scotsman is an example of what little eastern railway heritage remains and is the most famous Steam engine in the world. It needs to steam and continue to fly the flag for Britain, for our engineering heritage that we should be proud of and of our ability to keep something like this in prestine order today. It it costs a lot to do that then it needs to be done and when it is, the cost will be justified in the operation and the crowds that will flock to see it. You wouldn't flatten Windsor Castle because there was a fire and it was damaged, sighting it would be cheaper to build from scratch. Instead you repair the old icconic structure and start its next chapter. Scotsman is starting its second chapter of finishing the overhaul and entry into the traffic with the NRM. That frankly, is bloody marvellous and anyone else who thinks otherwise can go take a seat...

 

A few pages back pete2hogs said "It's only connection with the original (1920's-30's Flying Scotsman) is the name it carries." Is it as bad as that? Has Flying Scotsman become a replica of itself? Or can it be restored to running condition with a reasonable number of original parts still there?

Richard

 

I have to say, as an LNER fan through and through, the lack of LNER locomotives preserved (of whatever pre-grouping vintage) really is appalling compared to that on the other three of the big four. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I think it's clear that were it not for Barry Scrapyard, locomotive preservation itself would be a lot more sparse and considerably less well equipped.

You must also remember that in the national collection itself, the LNER and its constituents is rather well represented. Two Ivatt Atlantics, the E4, the J69, Mallard, Green Arrow, the Stirling Single, the J52, Aerolite, the Robinson O4, NER 1001 long boiler 0-6-0, the NER 901 class 2-4-0, the GER J17...I'm sure there's a few more in the national collection I've missed. That covers GCR, GER, GNR and NER which were the major pre-grouping constituents.

If there was ever a gap in the LNER roster that needed to be filled, however, it is the lack of an Atlantic tank locomotive. Off the top of my head I can't think of any others (if any) preserved elsewhere. An Ivatt 4-4-2 would have been my preference (endearingly feeble looking things) but any from the constituents would have added a great value to the role of the suburban tank locomotive in preservation history. As it stands, it's a gap that looks unlikely to be filled.

In short, you play the cards you are dealt, and it is somewhat telling that the first new build completed and steamed in preservation is of an LNER design (though British Railways built, of course) and that of the other new builds in the fray, two in particular (the G5 and F5) are lost links in tank locomotive terms, and the third ex-LNER engine is a much lamented Claud Hamilton. The desire to "fill the gaps" is there for the LNER fraternity, and that there's the possibility of two different guises of Gresley P2 being built must say something of the passion for the LNER that remains.

I don't think I can disagree with that, however I would say that there should be no bitterness felt for those regions better served by virtue of, more or less, luck and circumstance. We should be grateful for whatever and all kinds of steam locomotives that have been preserved, though agreeably I would like it if more attention was made, for example, of 8572 which remains Britain's only inside cylindered 4-6-0 (and the most handsome 4-6-0 ever built in my opinion).

You are making a lot of sense there sir.

 

Why does this argument about "originality of components" get bandied about so often? What working locomotive in this day and age - never mind the steam age where parts such as boilers, frames, tenders and wheelsets were changed regularly - is original to its build date? To suggest that originality of parts defines identity is a nonsense and an utter fallacy.

 

The Adams radial on the Bluebell ... (Assuming you just mean an Atlantic tank, not specifically an LNER one. Not a Barry engine, incidentally, but bought straight out of service from BR)

Tom

 

60163 - I thought you would have got that one Simon!

 

Belfast & County Down No. 30, at Cultra. (By 1948, half their locos were 4-4-2 tanks.)

Nice pic here.

 

L.T.S.R. "Thundersley" of course.

P.H.

 

In most cases I don't think originality would be a problem, but I believe it is NRM policy to retain as much original material on the basis that it is a museum and museums store and display original items, not replicas.
But then again, this is Scotsman, and normal NRM policy does not seem to apply here,

 

The NRM has a different policy for every locomotive as each is assessed on its own merits. This is also why some engines continue to steam/are restored to steam and others aren't.

Originality of components is a big discussion. Originality to 1923, in Scotsman's case, is asking the impossible - overhauls were thorough in steam days, as they had to be. Knackered bits were for the chop, and rightly so. Originality to withdrawal from service though is quite another matter. Significantly more interesting, and more achievable. Obviously there need only be a few locomotives kept in this condition as examples, and there are only a few engines in a suitable condition for this. With a few engines, the immediate-post-service restoration is also special and becomes worthy of preserving. I'm thinking Lode Star, City of Birmingham etc.

That leaves the vast majority of engines available for service, with the commensurate replacement of components that entails. Flying Scotsman definitely falls into this bracket. It was a working engine from 1923-2005.

 

You put it better than I could Jamie. I've said it before and will say it again - there is NO blanket policy.

Full stop

 

Still waiting on that article...

 

I think you just volunteered to draft it!

I'd add "Gladstone" to your list of engines having had significant "immediate-post-service restoration" - restored at Brighton works by men who had worked there in Stroudley's day. But then I would say that, wouldn't I? :smile:

Tom

 

I think it'll get finished when I retire...

 

A fair addition!

 

I think you'd enjoy early retirement, Anthony........

 

Chance would be a fine thing...

 

You would then be like the rest of us wondering how you managed to find time to work. With all the rest of the time swallowed up with railways.

 

Jamie/Anthony; Thanks for clarifying that.
Not the first time I've got caught out taking something I've heard as 100% true

 

Then what DOES define identity?