Flying Scotsman

It's worth noting that the WSR's 45XX is having new frames as part of its latest overhaul - the first time this has been done on a standard gauge restoration as opposed to newbuilt project I believe. With those two massive cylinders on a pretty dinky engines, the 45s were always going to be susceptible to high frame wear.

Whilst 4472, with three cylinders more in proportion to its size (even bearing in mind their boring out over the years), is probably less susceptible to such a problem, it is probably one of the hardest worked engines in preservation - this has been its longest period out of service in its history - and so frame replacement may become a requirement for continued operation in the future.

 

One of the cylinders was replaced this time and the middle cylinder was replaced at the previous overhaul, so there should be some reasonably recent information available on the frames.

 

Two of the Mid Hants S15's are having new front frame sections fitted due to corrosion behind the cylinders. On the GWR fitting new front frame sections was routine. Ray.

 

Dear all who know
Does the middle cylinder act as a frame stretcher? or, is it bolted to each of the main frames?

The Melter

 

But given the ammount of problems with the frames so far with hornguides, axle box centres etc, how likily is it that the frames around the cylinders might have fractures caused by the defects, its got to be better to do the extra work and ensure there are no hidden problems for later, rather than taking the word of anyone who might have been involved with the loco during its past history, i know i would not want to risk it if i were at the NRM.

 

Of course the middle cylinder acts as a frame stretcher. It is held in position by fitted bolts. At one time, in the not too distant past, Scotsman's frame set resembled a large item of Meccano, with numerous fitted bolts holding many components in place. It is no longer like that, but it is not my place to comment on this. Have a look at any A4's frames to see how it should be.

 

The middle cylinder was not without problems in the early days of the class. The frame stay part of it's job description proved problematic. The casting used to suffer from cracking and quite a few were replaced before it was pointed out that it was felt that replacement was only required if the cracks resulted in leakage of steam. The intention was to modify the pattern to strengthen the casting at the flange roots. Consideration was also given to producing the inside cylinder as a steel casting (Dec 1930 - usual source). As far as I can make out the cylinder remained produced in cast iron and I assume that the problems faded away when the frame plates had their design changed and an improved main frame stretcher was fitted. I wonder if the NRM had the frame plate NDT whilst the cylinder was replaced? Given what we know probably not but with the inside cylinder having to be removed and the frames attended to further that will be done during the 60 week period. Interestingly there is a joggle in the frame reported. Gresley Pacifics do not have these in the area of the cylinders (Chapelon Pacifics yes) so what is it doing here? I suspect that a great deal more measuring up will have to take place and it may be that some of the frame work carried out will need some adjustment - but I hope not.

I just wonder who is going to get the work contract to allow the job to be completed? Further, would anyone actually want it?

 

OK thanks, i did wonder if the bolts that held it were top and bottom or side to side, not knowing the relationship between the front of the middle cylinder to the rear of the outside ones made me wonder, i wonder if the joddle in the frames co insides with this front back relationship and is the site of the referred to shim.

The Melter

 

There are six bolts, vertically, that pass through the rear of the outside cylinders and the front of the inside cylinder. A vertical row of bolts at the rear of the inside cylinder also pass through the outside motion brackets.

 

ok thanks std tank

The Melter

 

Thats a bit different though: those were the bolt on extension frames which apparently had been known to crack at not too far beyond the life of a set of cylinders. By having a complete extension frame/cylinder set in the works ready to bolt on a loco that needed new cylinders then there was a considerable saving in overhaul time: wheel out the new set, line 'em up with the telescope: do up the bolts: job done.

 

I should have known that - senior moment there!!! Note to self 'put brain into gear before putting mouth (or typing fingers) into motion'. Of course Modified Halls and Counties had one-piece frames. Ray.

 

Agreed, but the fact that the frames were exposed at all and would have had to be cleaned up at least means that gross problems are unlikely (as the report suggests)

So how are the components held in place now? You can at least state facts - whether you like those facts or not.

previous damage to that frame? a new front end welded on prior to being fitted to FS? Is the history of the frames known?

 

Fastenings are now hot rivets. See the videos on the NRM's Scotsman web site.

 

And Stars,Castles and Kings. In that context its worth noting that I believe that no Star or Star conversion lasted beyond the 1950s without having had new frames at some stage, which maye gives us a clue as to what their productive frame life was. Of course that's not evidence for the life of the LNER frames but...

 

On the subject of costs, can some one a little help here please?

The 1978 work on 4472 carried out at Vickers in Barrow is quoted as costing around £750,000. Is this figure correct? If it is, there or thereabouts, that would translate as £3.675 million today.

We wonder about the Southall work, but if these figures are correct then the question might be why? As far as I can make out the engine arrived at Vickers on Dec. 12th 1977 and left on May 23rd 1978 with the spare boiler fitted. The price for a quick turn around perhaps?

At the end of 1973 it was felt that the engine had only travelled 20,000 miles since the Hunslet overhaul of the winter 68/69 and the next major overhaul would be required in 1985 at the then current rate of use. If the Vickers work was pretty well just boiler only when and where was the serious work on the chassis carried out? And more importantly, what was done?

Just thinking a little more about the joggle in the l.h.s. frame plate. Did this come about as a result of a "quick fix" when the inside cylinder was exchanged in 1999?

With thanks in advance.

 

Interesting! I'd been wondering when the middle cylinder had been disturbed since BR days but you say it was replaced in 1979. I'd never previously heard mention of a spare one being in existence, and I don't think it could have been a newly cast one. If the misalignment dates to 1999 then it's another one to lay at the door of the person in charge at that time.

 

Steam Railway this month. ..

'...It is clear that the NRM needed this time in order complete (sic) what must rank as one of the most outrageous example of 'public document' censorship seen in Britain since the Second World War.'

I hope whoever wrote this is embarrassed to liken this document to any other redaction of public document is shameful.

 

They have clearly never tried to read one of the many documents available on the government website then!

There are documents I have tried to read from 2004 and 2008 in relation to the banking crisis which have been extensively and explicitly "blanked out" thus rendering those documents largely unreadable. There's very few blanked out portions of the report on 4472 by comparison.

 

I did think that comment in SR was horribly dramatic.