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ELR does not like photographers

Discussion in 'Photography' started by Fred Kerr, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    Err, you are aware that the "member's only" part only refers to making posts?
    Any old muppet on the internet can read this thread without registering or logging in to the forum or becoming a 'member' of it.
     
  2. Robin

    Robin Member

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    I think postings are better in lined black. There's too many unlined black postings out there already..... (coat)
     
  3. goldfish

    goldfish Part of the furniture

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    Sorry, my bad… didn't it used to be blocked if you weren't logged-in though?

    Simon
     
  4. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    At the end of the day, if you don't want people to pass on what you've posted on the internet, don't post it in the first place. As I.Cooper has pointed out, this forum (and many others I may add) is only "members only" as far as posting is concerned. The rest of the world can drop by and read all and sundry.
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not quite all of it. If you aren't a member of this forum, you can't read "This is me", "New General Chat" or "General Railway Chat".

    Can't help thinking that all the stuff about copyright is a red herring: surely, it is a reasonable expectation that if you post something on a members' only forum, what you write should only be available to members of that forum - (including potential future members). In other words, what Fred did (if I understand correctly) in reposting verbatim material that was published on a private forum may or may not have breached copyright, but was certainly lacking in common courtesy.

    Tom
     
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  6. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Fair enough but my point still stands in the majority of cases.
     
  7. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Whilst the privacy factor applies to posting on forums (fori ?) there is nothing to stop anyone copying text by using <CTRL> + C and transferring it electronically either by E-mail or <CTRL> + V; whilst this does not affect the original, the grey area is then what legal status the original posting or the copied text have in terms of copyright and being in the public domain. Whilst I could have followed Goldfish's advice and said "I understand that there is a discussion taking place at FORUM X where comments made by an ELR spokesman about photographers are causing some controversy - I think people here would be interested, go and take a look" the publication of the link could have meant the possibility that making the search would have breached the confidentiality of the "members-only" forum; the fact that I was able to re-copy the actual text rather than a link meant that that "confidentiality" was protected.

    But as repeated by Spamcan81 - if you don't want people to pass on what you've posted on the internet, don't post in the first place.
     
  8. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    A forum can be set so that unless you are a member you cannot read . It is essentially private . What we don't know is what the terms and conditions are of that forum . There was recently an e-mail communication which was shared on this forum . The e-mail itself strictly said the content was private and confidential and not to be shared . There is no reason why the Lensman forum doesn't have a similar T&C which members agree to when they sign up .

    Now in this case the best approach may have been just to ignore the comments . I'm sure the individual who sent it to Fred knew exactly what would happen next . The problem becomes that bringing it into the public domain creates and unfortunate debate
     
  9. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Given the nature of the subject (i.e. the opinion of an ELR staff member concerning visiting photographers) did the concern for how photographers would be considered / treated in regard to rights of access to the ELR over-ride the common courtesy in not posting ? I make no apology for considering that it did but that is my value judgement; sometimes matters need to be discussed whether breaches of confidentiality arise or not.

    There are many cases where public concern over-rides common courtesy and I feel this is / was one of them. Similarly the Civil Servant who breached confidentiality to reveal the threat to the Cambrian routes from Machynlleth and was sought for "breaches of security" under the Official Secrets Act or the public official of the TUCC (Transport Users Consultative Council) who provided figures disproving BR's case to support closure of the S&C route and lost the chairmanship of the TUCC as a result. It all depends on what a person considers "in the public interest"; as a photographer any threat to rights of public access are "in the (photographic) public interest" and I make no apology for alerting that public to any perceived threat.
     
  10. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    But employees and members at ELR have no control at all over "rights of public access". Those would be matters for the local council's rights of way officer. The ELR can only control who has access to their own private property, which they are perfectly at liberty to charge for access to, or to refuse admission altogether. Ultimately such choices would be business decisions.

    The ELR, just like any other preserved railway, are powerless to prevent photographers taking pictures of their trains from areas of public access and adjoining public rights of way, or from vantage points on adjoining private land - where of course the photographer would always seek permission from the land owner prior to entering.
     
  11. TheLairdofNetherMoor

    TheLairdofNetherMoor New Member

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    I completely agree with you here, whatever the actual legal issues surrounding it all.

    There was no need to copy the conversation from the other forum anyway. If Fred felt the issue needed raising here, then it only required the relevant quote from the ELR chap to be posted; it was unnecessary to post the views of members of that forum, particularly as they didn't really add much in the way of substance to the discussion.
     
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  12. Unlikely

    Unlikely New Member

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    This attempt to present the issue as a piece of 'whistleblowing' of major public importance is spectacularly amusing. Not for the first time, the way a journalist handles themselves on a railway forum dissuades me from buying the publications they're associated with.
     
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  13. goldfish

    goldfish Part of the furniture

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    This sounds bonkers. If you provided the link, it would have taken people to the forum, at which point they could choose to register (if not already members) and if acceptable to the forum administration, would have been given access. Had the forum not liked the cut of the visitors' jib, they wouldn't have been given access. Either way, the Ts&Cs that the forum operates to, including its privacy/confidentiality, respecting its policies and the terms its members agreed to, are then followed.

    You're kind've self-justifying here, but as a number of others have pointed, irrespective of the legal ins and outs, you've behaved very rudely. I'd strongly recommend not doing the same again.

    Simon
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  14. goldfish

    goldfish Part of the furniture

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    And it's a point I agree with. There's always someone or something that can break through a forum's (or Twitter or Facebook or whatever) security, so don't write what you can't face having copied/reused in ways that you hadn't intended.

    It doesn't mean that the people/things that tunnel through that security are any less annoying/unpleasant/rude (delete as appropriate for context).

    Simon
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  15. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Can we get back to the topic at hand please, and cease the witch hunt of the poster.

    Anything published to the internet is public, this forum and others are frequently quoted by the press and vice versa. As long as the quoted text refers back to the original source it cannot be seen as plagiarism in the academic sense.

    There are multiple forums discussing this, here a balanced view is accepted and again the offer is extended to the ELR to respond if they wish. Debate, opinion, not matter how unpalatable is legal and allowed in law.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2014
  16. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    And what about the witch hunt Mr Kerr has against both the ELR and Mr Barnett ?

    Mr Kerr was provided an extract from a "private" forum . He chose to post that I believe on multiple forums . I'm struggling with why do that other than to inflame . Some may call it Trolling . The reference to journalistic whistle blowing was mind boggling
     
  17. Tiviot Dale

    Tiviot Dale New Member

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    Some might also describe the following as trolling, but I think we would all like to know whether what is stated is totally factual:
    A colleague of mine informed me last night that Fred Kerr had had his ELR membership cancelled some time ago, as a direct result of his inappropriate attitude. Whether true or not, I do recall that, at one stage, Mr K attempted to place ELR management in a corner over the contentious issue of lineside trespass. Despite fellow linesiders quite literally telling him to keep his gob shut - in everyone's best interests - he appeared incapable of doing so and it got to the stage, I believe, of where several ELR 'regulars' were seriously considering occasioning serious bodily harm against him!
    Seems to me that the likes of Heritage Railway should seriously consider his future (paid) involvement with their publication! I, for one, will not be purchasing it again ... or at least not while he writes for them.
     
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  18. Standard 4MT

    Standard 4MT New Member

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    Don't forget many Robots do get onto "private" forums, that's how they come up on Internet searches!
     
  19. 47279

    47279 New Member

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    Notwithstanding the OP's alleged 'gripes' with the ELR, it has to be said that the comments posted by the ELR Marketing Manager, describing the majority of photographers as 'profiteers', were deeply offensive to many. There has, thus far, been no apology on any of the forums, just attempts by Richard Barnett to justify and 'tone down' his original post. Well, is it the 'majority' or the 'minority' of photographers that he refuses to tolerate? I'm one of those that regularly go out to photograph the trains at the ELR, and have been a supporter of the line for many years and, more recently, a member. I have paid to travel on the trains, and have stumped up the cash to take part in the evening, morning and full-day charters on the line. I thus do not consider myself to be a 'profiteer' by any stretch of the imagination (especially considering the correct usage of the word!), and have, like many others, been offended by effectively being branded as such. The ELR management team have been strangely silent on the subject since the comment was posted several days ago now, but I would have hoped that they would have clarified the railway's position by this time, having been asked to do so several times. With paid employees of the line seemingly free to attack enthusiasts without fear of recriminations, I am considering if my money is better spent elsewhere in future!
     
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  20. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    In which case your colleague has been mis-informed.

    I chose to not renew membership after an ELR official threatened prosecution for lineside trespass on a public forum when he had the opportunity to contact me off-line and ask me not to become involved in a forum discussion of ELR lineside access. I therefore demanded a statement of official ELR lineside policy on that forum and a statement (albeit made with reluctance I was advised later) was issued from the General Manager regarding lineside access. Following that action I not only received threats against my person but so did my son - and THAT was unacceptable ! I wrote to the secretary regarding my non-renewal and he asked me to reconsider my action especially after my lengthy membership and supportive articles and I pointed out that the question of lineside access had always been one that concerned me - especially since I was one of the photographers who had been granted a lineside permit by the then Safety Officer which the ELR had subsequently revoked when it restricted lineside access to "working members" only.

    The position of lineside access on the ELR has always been nebulous and over the years I had tried to get resolution but the ELR refused to discuss it stating that their lease did not permit them the right to grant photography lineside access. The public threat of prosecution and its consequences led me NOT to renew membership - it was NEVER rescinded by the ELR; I decided not to renew on a point of principle (of lineside access) and I now support a railway where lineside access is both accepted and regulated in a way that I find meets my concerns.

    Yes I have an axe to grind !! I supported the ELR for over 15 years and was given no support when I sought reasonable lineside access for photographers YET when I look at ELR images in the magazines I find a surprising number taken from what I consider are lineside locations. However I am no longer an ELR member so I no longer involve myself with ELR politics until an ELR employee states ""I must say and its not exclusive to the ELR that railway's play to photographers. Unfortunately most of them are out to profiteer from our events through there images by either selling them to mags or as framed prints. I do not tolerate this and have had many years of dealing with it." That comment I take as a criticism of photographers and as a photographer I felt it needs a wider audience hence my posting on the photography threads of forums which I am familiar with.

    Tiviot Dale calls mine "an inappropriate attitude" - I call it a principled stand and I leave it for others to judge - on the basis of TRUE facts not "3rd party informants" which party is the more honest !

    However shooting the messenger does not answer the message that was being delivered - what is the ELR policy regarding photographers and their photography of the railway. Mr Barnett has claimed to have been quoted out of context and has sought to qualify his statement but I notice that nothing official has been received from the ELR Board - his employer - despite an offer of reply being made by the administrator.
     

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