Do railtour operations need a unified voice ?

But the note on the other thread implies that contact was made and the incorrect policy applied. It was avoidable.

 

Strikes me that that the Network Rail process worked in so much as the paperwork that should have been in place that is part of the audit trail to establish whether the proposed action is safe wasn't and so the action was not permitted to go ahead. Disappointing for enthusiast, passenger and it seems Network Rail and the latter have said that lessons will be learned. I don't think a return to SLOA (the acronym alone makes me cringe) is the way ahead but a unified professional organisation that could have a recognised role in situations as befell the NWCE would be something that I think the industry could benefit from.

 

My final tuppence on this thread will be this: one area where there seems to be regular issues regarding motive power availability is the inability for certain classes to operate certain routes. Now it can seem that there is a bit of a cavalier attitude on the part of the promoters when it comes to selecting motive power for a trip, only for it to be changed at the last minute because it transpires that the main choice is out of gauge and there is a subsequent scrabble for a replacement locomotive or a change of route. However, maybe the issue is more to do with a genuine lack of understanding of what can go where rather than ignorance?

Network Rail has a measurement train that it is out and about fairly regularly, so it would be most helpful if either they compile a manual for promoters detailing what locomotives can run where, or provide the data for another intermediary body to do the same, as it currently seems that gauging is a bit of a black art that no-one understands until 'computer says no' a week before the trip. If this information were published and promoters received a handy reference as to what to use on a certain route, then that would go some way towards preventing some of the motive-power mishaps that have occurred in recent years, and would mean that the availability issue is more down to individual locomotives than anything else. Not only that, but any changes undertaken during engineering possessions should be re-gauged and logged, so that the manual can be updated regularly. This would negate the need for an overarching body 'controlling' the industry, and would allow promoters to continue free enterprise in the knowledge that they have the most up-to date information available on the condition of various routes. The only barrier is the will to do a comprehensive gauging exercise across the nation. However, I feel that Network Rail would also benefit from the exercise, as it would enable the company to learn more about the network they operate.

 

Just reading about the West Coast Franchise and Vigin worrying about losing it. Now there's a thought - a Steam Railtour Franchise. One company bidding to manage Steam Tours across the country. Doesn't stop partnership below that and would keep all the major players involved, but co-ordinated in a world that NR understand.

 

The more I read the more I think immoderate moderator - ? conflicts of interest - i don't know. Some of the posts seem over aggressive and others seem to have been suspended for less - think ECO

All I see as Frank's agenda is to have a more consistent and professionally run Steam Tour business for the benfit of enthusiasts and the public alike. Is this a bad agenda?

 

Of course I can take no action - I'm not in "the loop" as a promoter or a TOC, let alone the Network Rail, who's byzantine procedures make planning in the industry a gamble, rather than a business proposition. I haven't even suggested a trade organisation, merely a regular meeting of the main players in this aspect of the industry, which I repeat again - is probably worth £50m p.a. at the sharp end. I did however make a career of problem solving in the industry as a result of which the railway, and taxpayer, is many millions of pounds better off, I can travel this country and look out of the window and see the results of my actions contributing to the economy or the amenity of the areas concerned. More than many! Meeting of minds can make the difference. High handed arrogance never will!

That I have not worked at the sharp end of railtour promotion most certainly does not make me ignorant of the processes, although some try to indicate that. Once you have worked inside the legal and operational processes you know, and it doesn't go away - even if some - especially some promoters wish I would - because I can see how they could do better. The choice is theirs - up your game and stay in business, or carry on and fail as the market deserts your product. As I have already said - anyone with eyes in their head can see it happening right now. The task for all of us who want to see steam on the mainline continue is to recognise problems and address them. A universal ostrich act will help no-one.

If the bodies involved, particularly some promoters, think their current levels of accuracy of :-

Initial planning
Accuracy of advertising
Notification and contracting in of intended motive power
indicated advance timings
load calculations when considered against loco class to be employed
complacency with standards of rolling stock
attitudes to passenger concerns
and more

are a way to win them friends and more business, then the current crop of "please join my tour - here's a discount" tell another story.

Time will tell.

 

I'm getting rather bored with the constant reiterations from the two sides of this debate - nothing is being said that wasn't said 'n' pages back, or indeed in previous threads in a similar vein. I don't think the poll proves anything much either, too few votes, but the current standing does show a near even spilt between 'change needed' and 'no change'.

I believe we basically have two camps here. On one side there's an unholy alliance between the youngsters for whom steam is their main preoccupation (for now), and the old guard who grew up in the steam age and both of these groups will put up with anything to get their fix. On the other side we have the middle gound - steam fans with families and Joe Public - both who have non-steam fans and budgets to worry about.

So long as there are enough of the former, who would probably get up at 2am and travel in open wagons to get their fix, I can't see standards improving much. (I was 17 once and regularly slept in brakevans etc every weekend, so I know how strong the draw is). However, the other half of this group are dwindling due to age, and I'm not sure those like me will take the same view when we're on our much reduced pensions.

And if things don't improve (in all aspects, not just stock, but overall reliability in providing what has been advertised) then I fear the 'normals' will not return, and will poison the market further by relating their experiences to their friends and colleagues.

So in general I'm with Frank. Out of interest has anyone trawled through sites such as Trip Advisor, where Joe P tend to discuss their outings?

 

Plans.
Never forget the old maxim "no plan survives first contact with the enemy."

 

Same mixed opinion on Tripadvisor with Steam Dreams and TBEL doing rather better than RTC. However for context, not a huge number of reviews for all of them.

 

Yes - I had a look. Noticeable that SD apologised and put their side of the story, where as RTC didn't.

 

Indeed Big Al. TA (amongst others) is where you will find what Joe Public think of the industry, and although there's not many reviews so far, there are enough tales of woe to make any newcomer think twice. I think 'must try harder' would be the impression you'd walk away with.

 

At the risk of putting my head in the lion's mouth so to speak, could someone please clarify the question?

Are you looking for someone/something to regulate to tour operators (I vote against – but that’s predictable!) and therefore give passengers a voice, or are you looking for something else? My understanding of SLOA (Steam Loco Owners Association) was exactly as the name describes and had little or nothing to do with passengers, but this is before my time.

I think I might be a bit late with this question as the more vocal users seem to be on the naughty-step at the moment, but interested to find out the answer.

I would have thought that if a passenger was so upset with a single operator, there are enough alternatives for said passenger to travel with a different operator. If someone is so disillusioned with all the current operators and feel their needs are not being met or addressed, then they can either set up their own business and see if they can show us all how it should be done, or get another hobby!

(Read put-up or shut-up!)

That being said, I do agree that there is room for improvement in some areas including the coaching stock, however the constant berating by the same people (who admit they don’t travel on the trains anyway so how do they know?) over and over again does not have any effect.

We value customer feedback, but please don’t generalise. If there is a specific problem with a VT Train, then talk to us and we will do our best to address / fix the issue there and then. We always have representation on the train. I can usually be found in the Pullman kitchen playing with knives; Bob and Alastair are usually either guarding or on the engine; Arthur is in the buffet; There are stewards in every coach, etc.

So, back to the question. What EXACTLY are you looking for and to what end?

 

Brave man Ben, but then VT have never been afraid to "put up" when asked, something I think we all appreciate.

For myself, I'm looking for much more certainty that what I book is what I get, and if not, I don't expect to have to jump through legal hoops to get reasonable redress. So this would include things like the tour running on the day specified, the loco being the one booked (excluding failures), or if time permits a steam substitute (a diesel sub is not acceptable to me).

The stock being fit for purpose for the passengers (it can be sky blue pink outside so long as all the services work and the seats are comfortable). The timings are sensible in the first place and are adhered to during the day (so no chancey overloading, no hanging around in loops for ages, no running close to possession times and getting stranded). Enough time to enjoy the destination properly (including enough time for loco and stock servicing so departure is on time). If dining, then the food quality should reflect the price paid and should be served hot.

As to how to make this happen, not easy! I think as far as loco availabilities and pathing/timings etc go, this might be where an umbrella organisation could have a part to play, acting as a clearing house between loco owners, tour operators and NR. So we don't get multiple tour operators claiming the same loco, or find out too late the loco won't fit the route, or get saturation of an area due again to multiple operators offering tours on the same/next day.

As for stock/food quality, this may turn out to be self regulating in the end, as people vote with their feet, but this is no consolation to first time travellers who get their fingers burnt. So maybe the umbrella organisation could operate a quality assurance scheme and tour operators be awarded a star rating? This would force tour operators to get tough with the stock providers, or operate their own rakes.

Iain

 

Two really sensible posts from Sheff and Big Al, like the idea of the Star Rating, and well done to Ben for asking the question.

As already mentioned, because VT control both stock, and loco, most of the time, they are better placed.