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Discussion on EMU's from the Cig 3 thread.

Discussion in 'Diesel & Electric Traction' started by Spamcan81, Jan 20, 2016.

  1. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    I wonder how much heat build-up there would be in the wedge?
     
  2. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    It also has the Shenfield 306. You know, the one that was in full operating condition and ran excursions in East Anglia before they 'claimed' it. I was on two of them. It's maybe the only classic EMU that could run on the network in roughly the condition it was in for most of its life, because its not mk1 based and has power doors.
     
  3. SilentHunter86

    SilentHunter86 New Member

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    How hard was it to fit central locking to the Hastings DEMU? Could that not be a possibility with other EMUs?
     
  4. Peter Wilde

    Peter Wilde New Member

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    Some posts above have referred to "Mail Rail".

    Until its closure in 2003 the Post Office Railway under central London used narrow-gauge (2 ft) driverless electric trains with third rail current. "Mail Rail" is a proposal to open a passenger ride on a short part of this system as part of the new Postal Museum at Mount Pleasant.

    However, according to a recent Rail magazine article, the new passenger trains being built for this purpose will be battery operated.
     
  5. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Member

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    Ah, that makes sense, though it's a shame. But having seen first-hand the elderly electrical installation on a guided tour some 15+ years ago, I can't say I'm surprised.
     
  6. SilentHunter86

    SilentHunter86 New Member

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    I'm not sure what the legal/H&S requirements are to operate a third rail current system, but they're obviously so high that among heritage railways only the Bluebell is even thinking about it and that's in a 2030 timeframe. Speaking of battery power, could that be a recourse for older EMUs?
     
  7. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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    Isnt that what the EKR does?
     
  8. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

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    I'd heard vague handwaving about the Bluebell doing it, but not any firm plans. Would certainly be nice to see.
    Battery power, I'd be doubtful. It is possible-trolleybuses had batteries for manouvring short distances off wire, though I'd assume they would have been a much lower voltage than line voltage (550V I think). In the very early days Crich had a room full of old trolleybus batteries that could power the overhead, I think this was more a backup or short use system though. There is also a battery EMU built by BR and preserved, based on a diesel railcar of some kind.

    Reason I'm doubtful is the incredible weight, and the cost. A set of batteries to suit a 48v narrow gauge industrial loco is about £3-4K (for 24 cells). Even allowing that you could probably run less than 600V for sub 25mph preserved line use, you still need a lot of cells. You'd be looking at a major redesign to make room, or a seperate battery wagon in the formation. In which case, might as well chuck a diesel genny set in there. Then you need to keep on top of maintainence, cells need regular topping up. Doing 300 2v cells would take a while.
     
  9. As John of Wessex says, there are four former BR Motor Luggage Vans at the East Kent Railway (owned by the EPB Preservation Group) which are perfectly adequate to power (and run in multiple with) the EPBPG's 2EPB and 4CEP.

    http://preserved.railcar.co.uk/79998.html
    http://preserved.railcar.co.uk/79999.html

    "... but the cost of replacement batteries and limited facilities means the vehicle no longer operates under its own power, being used as loco hauled coaching stock instead."
     
  10. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

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    Ah, didn't realise they were battery, I stand corrected. And will have to take a trundle down Kent for a ride, thanks :)
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The official position (as detailed in the long term plan) is, for "projects aspired to in the 25 years to 2038": "Investigate the possible future electrification of the Ardingly branch." That sounds suitably vague to me, though interestingly it was specifically referred to by the BRPS President - a railwayman of long experience on the 3rd rail network - in his address at a recent BRPS AGM.

    For those considering battery propulsion, here's a challenge in energy management. Ignore the logistics of actually building the Ardingly branch, and the issues around restoring and maintaining suitable stock, and just consider propulsion.

    HK - Ardingly is 2 miles; HK to Haywards Heath is 4 miles, so you have either a 4 mile or an 8 mile round trip. I reckon a sensible service would be to depart from HK shortly after the main crossing movement of the two regular service trains, and arrive back shortly before the next one; that gives you a window of about 55 minutes to complete the round trip (whether 4 or 8 miles). So I don't think very challenging in speed, though the gradients are 1 in 60 in places.

    We run a maximum of 7 round trips on the service trains, so I think there are six "crossings" you'd need to connect with, but in addition I think it would be desirable to have a round trip to serve Haywards Heath (if that is the ultimate destination) so passengers starting there can connect with the first and last steam trains at HK. So I think that implies a maximum daily diagram of 8 round trips to HK (64 miles). If the ultimate destination were Ardingly, not much point in having services that run before the steam service as no-one would consider starting at Ardingly: that gives a much smaller daily diagram of 6 * 4 miles = 24.

    So, taking those assumptions: is battery power feasible on current technology? Given the fact that the unit would spend considerable periods on each round trip at either HK or HH, would a twenty minute "top up" from a shore supply be feasible / worthwhile at each end?

    Tom
     
  12. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    The price for replacement batteries for the Royal Deeside Railways Battery Multiple Unit was also reportedly approaching an eye-wateringly high five figure number.
     
  13. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

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    Interesting that the EPB Group are talking of fitting a genny to an MLV (I've been looking round, had no idea what they were doing-it looks excellent). If I'm right in presuming that 25mph will need much lower power than the units take at full speed, and considering how small, light and quiet modern diesel sets can be, maybe that makes more sense than batteries?

    (Still rather see some kind of proper 3rd rail though :D )
     
  14. Sort of like a Class 73 in 400-series stock clothing :)
     
  15. SilentHunter86

    SilentHunter86 New Member

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    What about that experimental 321 unit? Is that the way to go?
     
  16. martin1656

    martin1656 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Short term the only prospect would be a DMU service or most likely diesel loco hauled stock depnding on if there would be a run round at HH , With no run round, you have no option, its either a DMU,a 33, running in push pull mode over time the bluebell could look at aquiring one of the demotorised cig sets that will be availible from the 5 bellle project.assuming they dont see running the full ardinly branch as a 1 engine in steam shuttle assuming that they can for the short term run a top and tailed vintage set
     
  17. 35B

    35B Resident of Nat Pres

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    The 379 that was used on the Harwich branch has I believe been converted back to standard spec.
     
  18. Luke McMahon

    Luke McMahon New Member

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    Also another group quietly beavering away are the project commuter lads working on the NRMs 2HAP 4308.

    Seems to have progressed a lot thus far, AFAIK it's being cosmetically restored so that it can be opened up to joe public on certain days etc so unfortunately doubt it'll get much other use but might be able to travel about for open days etc.
     
  19. SilentHunter86

    SilentHunter86 New Member

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    You can use a 73 as well of course.
     
  20. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    There will be no run round facility at Haywards Heath if the Bluebell ever get there! While the current rebuilding does allow for the possibility of a platform structure against the current goods run round loop - no space has been provided to allow for any extra trackwork or the realignment of the loop to provide it.
     

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