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Discussion on EMU's from the Cig 3 thread.

Discussion in 'Diesel & Electric Traction' started by Spamcan81, Jan 20, 2016.

  1. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    Presumably the Manchester-Bury installation, which was a side contact and the 3rd rail being practically encased in wood with a slot for the pick up to operate in would be in the same category as the DLR?
     
  2. The inherent problem with the VEP stock was that it was designed to try and be all things to all people - effectively a high density, inner suburban layout let loose on the main line. It was never going to be the most pleasant experience banging along at 90, even after all the sliding windows were screwed shut. It couldn't be.

    The refurbished CEPs were formerly comfortable main line stock ruined by a 'fashionable' late 70s makeover, complete with screaming yellow melamine, cheap plastic brown/orange seats and the astonishingly misguided use of hopper windows, which did absolutely nothing to ventilate those in that seating bay but inflicted winds of antarctic ferocity on those in the bay behind.

    Combined with the shoddy workmanship, as you and others alluded to, the experience of screaming down Hildenborough bank and through the likes of Marden in post-refurbishment CEP stock was, IMO, an even less pleasant experience than doing the same in a 4VEP. Which really took some doing!

    After the shock to the system that was refurbished CEP stock following the Hastings units, and then the inevitable and inexorable invasion of VEPs on to the Hastings line, the allocation of CIG stock to the timetable came as a considerable relief to the buttocks of those from south of Tonbridge!
     
  3. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I also very much doubt that they will be practically possible, but the ORR guidance document I saw was a little more nuanced than that.
     
  4. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    On the basis that we should also preserve some of our worst ever designs, this is wonderful news. Just don't expect anyone to pay to sit in one for fun. Stored rotting in a field next to an airport, say, would seem like a fitting end to one of these heaps.

    Are you sure about that? Last time I looked into this the RHC (which still existed then) had only designated the nameplates, and said they wouldn't designate the whole units (008 & 009) because this would prevent their refurbishment. At least one of the pair has recently been refurbished too. It's a shame, I think both should have been kept intact in their original form, but this doesn't make any commercial sense.

    Don't agree here either. Unless the guidance has changed recently I always understood that the concern was whether people living in the locality were familiar with the level of danger, therefore a new 3rd rail line in deepest Sussex might be acceptable where a new 3rd rail line in deepest Essex might not, for example.

    Under your interpretation London Underground would not be allowed to power up the Croxley link when it is built, for example - and I'm sure there are others.

    I accept that any preservation group which tries it will have an uphill battle on their hands but I'm equally sure that anyone who does their homework and comes up with a robust, professional case with proper consideration of risk will at least be taken seriously.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  5. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

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    Thanks for that, I'd not heard the ORRs position. Though surely conversion to a DLR type conductor rail would be an option? Obviously this is all pie in the sky stuff without funding and interest, but it's interesting to think what could be done.
     
  6. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    Let's face it, no line is ever going to want to add third rail. The interest is so small, it wouldn't be worth the investment.

    I think the EKR use a battery baggage car to power their units don't they? Sensible solution, and of course 73 or 33/1 could be used with some units
     
  7. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    If you are prepared to run round at each end of the line any air fitted diesel eill do
     
  8. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    obviously, but that rather negates the multiple unit bit, "my" way the train looks right on half the journeys
     
  9. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    Regarding the Watford extension:-

    Firstly the amount of 'new' exposed conductor rail is tiny. Please remember that although the power has been turned off for more than a decade and the infrastructure is in no state to run a train, the Watford - Croxley Green section is still 'officially' an electrified railway using the exposed conductor rail system - album "mothballed" - note as far as I am awere it has never officially been 'closed'. The only totally 'new' section is the tiny bit linking the Croxley Green branch to the Metropolitan line.

    Secondly this line will be securely fenced in, has no level crossings (which includes footpaths - not just roads), will be operated by (including all aspects of the power supply) a large organisation with lots of resourses, a good track record and with much familiarity of exposed DC conductor rail. It also recognises with London Underground the nature of its tunnelled sections in the centre of London and the fact that it has just re-equipped the sub surface lines with new stock forcing adoption of Overheads would make the whole project unaffordable and frustrate the public transport aims of the project.

    Thirdly The line also for fills a highly desirable public transport need - it's not a museum (which is what Heritage railways effectively are - defining them as a 'Public Transport system' is more about utilising the VAT exemption on tickets for such an enterprise).

    Consequently in this particular case the ORR take the view that the installation of exposed conductor rail despite their views, is justified in this isolated example.

    Regarding local familiarity with exposed conductor rail:-

    Such sentiments are nonsense. The risks associated with exposed conductor rail are the same whether you are in Sussex or Scotland - it doesn't get any less dangerous depending on where you live. While it may be true that a Sussex resident may be more aware that one of the rails they see carries dangerous electrical voltages / currents you cannot include such a thing in risk assessments - because the public shouldn't be getting close to it familiar or not! Similarly the dangers to staff who have a live conductor running through their place of work are very real - familiarity does not prevent accidents, having suitable mitigation methods or ideally not having the hazard present in the first place does. You wouldn't permit exposed conductors in easily touchable locations in a factory these days just as you wouldn't permit machinery not to have safety guards / interlocks in place to try and prevent operators suffering injuries from getting caught up the mechanisms.

    Wake up to the realities that exposed conductor rails are inherantly dangerous things to have for staff and the general public the fact that they exsist in large numbers is an accident of history - just as we still allow the sale of tabaco despite knowing it's bad effects on our health. As such we should be looking to eliminate 3rd rail where possible and not install any more (unless it is absolutely essential), particularly as dual voltage stock is only fractionally more expensive and solutions to restricted clearances like battery technology or a 'Paisley Cannal branch' solution enables the remains gaps in the DC network to be filled.

    Yes it does mean heritage EMUs face a tough future, 'stuffed and mounted' or restored to mainline condition if possible, but I make no apologies for that.

    Oh and for the avoidance of doubt I do work with exposed conductor rail and despite being a 'Southern' man recognise that it is a horrible thing that has no place on our mainline railway.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Must admit I have a bit of a soft spot for the apparently derided 4VEPs. I grew up on the Reading- Waterloo line, and that is what we had. (I think there were 4CIGs as well). I don't remember (as a child) that they were either especially lively to ride, nor drafty, but I suspect that was more because I knew nothing else better, rather than their inherent qualities.

    One thing that always struck me if you went through Ascot early morning towards London: the platform would have neat lines of 3 or 4 commuters and when the train stopped on the mark, those lines would align precisely with each door. If you happened to be sitting in a"regular's" seat, no words would be said but the glare ... Nowadays I commute on FGW rubbish with a door at each corner, and it is a free-for-all scrum at each door and you spend half way from Soton to Romsey before everyone shuffled into a seat - if you are lucky. In the circumstance, the 8 car VEPs with decent overhead luggage racks and lots of doors start to look quite appealing...

    Tom
     
  11. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    A bottom contact mostly shrouded solution is still a difficult proposition for a Heritage group to gain acceptance for, primarily because it is still relatively accesable position and as such The ability for it to suffer damage to the protective coverings and expose the conductor is there. A a cable hanging above head height is seen as being far safer for that reason - after all we have electricity pylons carrying exposed conductors all over the country.

    The big argument against a DLR style solution however comes more from the Heritage lobby as it clearly looks very different from traditional top contact 3rd / 4th rails and requires very different shoegear. It does however remain only plausible way of getting the ORR to agree to a conductor rail powered Heritage operation.
     
  12. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    The NRM and it's predecessors have NEVR been out to preserve everything, nor does 'popularity' play a big role in what they chose to keep. As has been pointed out before the UK Heritage sector would be a hell of a lot smaller if it wasn't for Woodhams not scrapping most of the steam locos the bought from BR.

    The purpose of the NRM is to collect a 'representative selection' of vehicles, with an emphasis on illustrating big differences or innovative machines. Thus in the early days the acquisition of a single Midland compound 4-4-0 was thought sufficent and the similar looking LMS 2Ps and Southern L1 did not need preserving. Similarly with EMUs, a single driving coach from a 3/4 SUB, a single driving coach from 4COR unit and the 2BIL was thought to be sufficent to represent the vast number of Southern built EMUs (the 4 SUB unit at Coventry is a bit of an anmoly as the NRM didn't set out to preserve it as such and it hung around on BRs books right up until privatisation I believe). In the diesel and electric era the have an EM1, a class 84, a class 71, a class 31, a class 47, a class 37 and in future a class 50 to represent locomotives - hardly a comprehensive collection compared to what we'd have in the wider preservation world.

    Preserving all or part of a 313 fits into that ethos very we'll - it illustrates the body styling as applied to a whole raft of EMUs (both DC & AC), it was the first dual voltage EMU built for the UK and I believe it was also the first use of sliding doors on a true BR designed unit (BR may have built sliding door units before the 313s but they were designed by the LNER / LMS).
     
  13. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    You are forgetting the fact that in most EMUs, while an air fitted diesel unit can haul it about the people inside are going to be potentially cold and traveling in the dark. The supplies to drive the heating, lights and charge the batteries come from the pick up shoes - even within a 12 car set each 4 car unit derives all these solely from its own pick up shoes. As such if you are going to operate them frequently they will require signifficant modification to allow the diesel to provide ETH to the unit.
     
  14. threelinkdave

    threelinkdave Well-Known Member

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    Heating is only a problem if you need to run them in the heating season. It would limit there use but this is the case on SVR where diesel locos are only used outside the heating season. DMUs are used during winter months or steam is rostered

    Lighting - why has it become the fashion to have the lights on continually. In the 60s even on an EMU the lights would only be switched on for tunnels or during darlness.

    If you have not got a third rail you might therefore be limited to summer daylight hours

    I am aware that hotel suplies on EMUs are derived from a traction voltage M/G unit . I was born and bred in SE London
     
  15. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    Which in turn limits the attractiveness. To take the SVR example a rake of coaches which is steam heated can be used behind a no heat / ETH diesel in summer AND a steam locomotive in Autum / Winter / Spring thus giving all year round availability. Even then in colder temperatures it might well be possible to couple a small steam engine to the train for heating purposes and have a diesel do the work of hauling it about.

    Thus while having a hauled EMU might well work well over the summer the fact that you need another set of coaches for a winter cannot be ignored, particularly as an awful lot of Heritage Railways rely heavily on their Christmas activities to generate a large chunk of their annual revenue.

    Consequently a preserved EMU will still not be a useful investment (even simply with regard to siding space) for any Heritage Railway (however loudly enthusiasts might shout) unless it is modified so as to become a year round useful resource for the host railway.
     
  16. Steve B

    Steve B Well-Known Member

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    In addition to which many heritage railways have tunnels - no amount of daylight is going to provide illumination there!

    Steve B
     
  17. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    Possibly - though because wood gets damp and can conduct electricity in such cases a synthetic GRP / Plastic type material would be needed for a new installation
     
  18. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    I doubt that is so. I once tried to get a statement about the electrocution risk with 3rd rail systems included in the recommendations for the Southern area secondary science syllabus. I failed and I believe it is still an omission despite the greater contemporary emphasis on H&S than 30+ years ago.
     
  19. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Interesting to see that the EKR does run EMU's - well done them
     
  20. Romsey

    Romsey Part of the furniture

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    Re post 2 : 40 days more like .....

    Posted 21/2/2016

    Cheers, Neil
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016

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