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Dartmouth Express 11th June 2016

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by 1020 Shireman, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    So you can't take more than load 11 behind a class 7 because of the ORR loading restrictions designed to ensure steam hauled trains keep time BUT you can hang 125 tons of dead diesel on the back of the 11 and keep time without assistance? Dream on. My friends on the train tell a very different story about the noise from the box and the shovage.
     
  2. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    It certainly wasn't working hard as it would be up a bank like Whiteball perhaps taking its own weight. If it had been a full on shove the train would have been going a lot faster and it's not any old class 7 it's a Bulleid that could take 13 over Honiton with the safety valves blowing at the summit.
     
  3. buseng

    buseng Part of the furniture

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    The video evidence of the train here & elsewhere proves it as well, any fool can tell the difference between light weight taking throttle & revving it's guts out with clouds of blue/black smoke.
    None of this nonsense about high revs for ETH either, not needed this time of year.
     
  4. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    So where is the video evidence at this location? The diesel was not revving it's guts out and if so why is 34052 using sand?
     
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Evidence? Try this from about 1.45 min. Look at the loco exhaust and Burlescombe is the steepest bit of Whiteball.
     
  6. buseng

    buseng Part of the furniture

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    Wasn't on about just this one video.
     
  7. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    That's the return working climbing to Whitball from the south. I was at the tunnel for the down working.
     
  8. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    I wish someone from WCRC would actually come out and tell us what the situation is. We are being told different things by different people. There must be some 'masterplan'. On Saturday, if 34052 was fit to run it certainly didn't need any assistance from a diesel with only 11 coaches over that route. It's done it on Torbay Expresses and always performed seriously well so why was the box there?
    Will assisting diesels be the norm on 'proper' mainlines - like the Great Western and South West Mainlines where steam has to be pathed between HSTs and Voyagers; the ECML on weekdays and Saturdays where the pathing is even tighter; the West Coast Mainline south of Crewe; (north of Crewe paths seem possible). There shouldn't be a need for boxes on the North and West from Bristol to Shrewsbury, an excellent route for steam but much ignored. The Cumbrian Coast should be OK; Carnforth to Scarborough should be OK.
    The issue of bookings had been mentioned often. This Dartmouth Express was full. We couldn't change our seats because all TSO and other seats were taken so the market for trains with a steam engine on the front still seems strong enough and the costs aren't that high if you don't live near the destination and want to get there in more style than service trains.
    The bottom line is passengers have the right to know what they're paying for - in other words, what's going on. Good name for a Forum.
     
  9. gricerdon

    gricerdon Guest

    I thought the ORR had banned 'banking' engines?

    Don
     
  10. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Well, we know that DBC has specific operational procedures for when a diesel may assist and this suggests that the ORR may well have a view on it. We don't know about WCRC. But you are right that the whole business of how the 11/6 trip ended up with a diesel attached is an odd one given practice on this same trip in the past.
     
  11. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    Quote from ORR Deputy Chief Inspector David Keay at the 'steam summit held on 4th May that included WCRC: 'After considerable debate we agreed that having a banker should not be a norm, and should only happen under controlled circumstances that have been fully risk-assessed'. I'd love to see the paperwork for this train as the locomotive has performed impeccably with the same load on the route.
     
  12. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    It was reported in the latest HR " If approved a banker will be required to work from the front end"
     
  13. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    The bizarre world of WCRC. Scotsman was allowed to take 12 - overloaded for a Class 7 under the new regime ( load 11 is the agreed limit) on The Tynesider on the same day unassisted!!! As Manuel would have said 'Qué'?????
     
  14. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think Scotsman with double Kylchap is treated as a class 8
     
  15. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    It certainly was under the previous owner, I think the NRM may be a little more cautious though, not without reason.
     
  16. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Just so we don't keep going around in circles over this, as I understand it, the maximum load limits (including POB) that have been set between the TOCs and the ORR are:
    Class 8 - 13
    Class 7 - 12
    Class 6 - 11
    Class 5 - 10.

    I imagine that on a particularly challenging route in terms of gradients, the TOC may reserve the right to adjust those figures downwards.
     
    green five and 1020 Shireman like this.
  17. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    Thanks for that Al. Better than expected.
     
  18. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Looks sensible to me...
     
  19. thickmike

    thickmike Member

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    Whilst these are useful general guidelines I would have expected there to be a trailing load figure in tons to go with this - 13 Pullmans would be a very different challenge to 13 made up of a mix of Mk1's and early MkII's which I believe were quite light.

    It would also seem sensible to look at some of the more challenging routes, such as Sapperton for example, and be clear whether these limits apply. Whilst we are all aware of some of the exemplary climbs made over challenging routes, I would have thought that with a wet rail and poor coal, these loads would be a significant challenge over some routes. Are there any more granular restrictions in place?
     
  20. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I think we know that Tornado was not allowed to take 13 over Sapperton on the UKRT trip. Clan Line has done it in style with 12 on and that seems to be the safe limit for a Class 8. So I am sure that certain routes will have lower limits for all the sensible reasons we can understand.
     

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