If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Dalesman and Pendle Dalesman 2021

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by iancawthorne, Dec 2, 2020.

  1. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    32,656
    Likes Received:
    16,978
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The Bulleid boiler is indeed a masterful steam raiser but the Scot is also capable of stunning performances so I agree that to make comparison based on one day is pointless, especially without knowing the cause of the Scot's woes.
     
  2. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    4,364
    Likes Received:
    2,605
    Are the TSRs southbound as well as northbound? My impression from Tuesday was northbound only.
     
  3. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    11,527
    Likes Received:
    11,417
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The clue to what may have been wrong is in the video. The absence of steam at the driving wheels suggests the sanders aren’t working for whatever reason, a matter that could be crucial in those conditions. Did it stop for a blow up or did the crew spend the time hand sanding the rails? The smart getaway suggests the latter.
     
    60017 likes this.
  4. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    11,527
    Likes Received:
    11,417
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I’m not sure thinking about it
     
  5. RalphW

    RalphW Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    33,117
    Likes Received:
    7,279
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I'm fairly certain they were only northbound, the one at Garsdale definitely was as we did not reduce speed at all heading south and flew over the viaduct and through the station without any slackening.
     
    iancawthorne likes this.
  6. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    2,524
    Likes Received:
    2,084
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Relaxingly retired
    Location:
    Deep in the country
    This is the TSR info on the RPS site for 15-21st May

    LEEDS-CARLISLE
    50 Down- 201-71 to 201-73 Apperley Jn :-rail defect
    20 Down- 256-64 to 257-73 Garsdale:-rail defect
    20 Down- 264-00 to 264-22 Kirkby Stephen sth(rail defect from 1130 Tues)
    20 Up---- 297-68 to 298-05 Armathwaite :-embankment
    20 Down- 303-78 to 304-00 Howe & Co nth:-soil cutting condition

    So Garsdale northbound only; Same KS.
     
  7. Mick45305

    Mick45305 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    302
    Location:
    Huddersfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Despite the struggle, there wasn’t a single slip. We did rally round for a short while towards Birkett Common into the mid 20s. But the pick up at Mallerstang just didn’t materialise. I did hear the blower being whacked open during our stop. Top praise again to Chris Cubitt and Martyn Soames for their skill and perseverance.
     
  8. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    11,527
    Likes Received:
    11,417
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    To work the engine to the limit of adhesion all that way was impressive. A shame Sod’s law intervened and they lost it in the last few yards
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
  9. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    17,730
    Likes Received:
    16,753
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I actually thought carefully about what I said before I said it to try and avoid anyone thinking that I was somehow introducing a backhanded slap about SG, that actually I rate highly. And there you go jumping unnecessarily into defence mode.

    So can I please try again and spell it out.
    1. The MN and Scot trips are hard to compare because of the different conditions and the locos that are not 'like for like'. (Already said.)
    2. I've assumed both firemen were on top of the job. (Already said.)
    3. Others have commented about coal and from the mouths of Carnforth crews many times to me it has been said that quality can vary especially if it 'dies' over the stopover.

    That's the context. What we emphatically know is that if (3) applied yesterday then the Bulleid would have been more resilient. No more; no less.

    This medium really is rubbish for getting clarity across so sorry if I scratched a LMS sore for you.
     
    green five likes this.
  10. RalphW

    RalphW Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    33,117
    Likes Received:
    7,279
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    But you did not know if 3 applied, and from the report of the run as far as Appleby it obviously didn't.
     
  11. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    3,083
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    ESI Eng Manager (Retd)
    Location:
    NE Lancs
    It’s raining and I’m bored so I’ll weigh in with my two-pennyworth.

    Whatever the problem from Appleby to Ais Gill, it did not manifest itself on the northbound climb (min of 44mph on the 1/100 per @Mick45303) nor on the southbound run to Appleby 45m 39s (@Mick45305). Not sure about the suggested adhesion issues (@Mick45305 reports no slipping). In the past, I’ve been told by a couple of drivers that it’s light rain that can cause problems and heavy rain “washes” the rail head clean – so no need for sanders. Sanders don’t appear to have been in use in heavy rain northbound (@Nige757’s video) – hope that you’ve dried off. I think that @andalfi1 might be closer to the mark and he should know as he’s swung a shovel to good effect in the past. There is no trace of steam around the safety valves (@Nige757’s video) this also suggests a steaming issue. Whatever the root cause, I am certain that Martyn would have been giving it 110%.

    Although something of a non-sequitur in his post I do agree with @Big Al that the MN boiler is exceptional, but the Scot boiler is no slouch. Size for size could a Scot boiler outperform that of a MN? Tests carried out at Rugby Testing Station could provide the answer.

    The MN should, on paper, having a larger, more sophisticated boiler comfortably out-perform the Scot. Major design differences [MN (Scot)],
    Grate Area: 48.5 (31.25) sq ft
    Firebox: Thermic Syphons (no syphons)
    Chimney: Le Maitre multiple jet (simple double chimney).

    The purpose of a locomotive boiler is to burn coal and produce steam. The maximum steam rates (lbs/hr) for both types of boiler (as measured at Rugby) are given below.

    [The calorific value of the coal used has a significant bearing on the steaming rate. The higher the calorific value of the coal the more heat it can produce. Bring in Fiona Bruce for a game of “Good, Better, Best.” The standard coal used at Rugby was Blidworth (Good). Some tests were done with South Kirkby coal (significantly Better). Whilst slightly better than S Kirkby was Bedwas (Best). Note: The tests carried out determined the maximum boiler output that could be sustained for one hour.]

    Merchant Navy Rebuilt (35022) – (from, Cecil J Allen, British Pacific Locomotives)

    37,000 (Blidworth)
    39,000 (S Kirkby or Bedwas)
    42,000 (S Kirkby) – but only sustained for 20 mins

    Royal Scot Rebuilt (46165) – (from O S Nock, The Royal Scots and Patriots of the LMS)

    30,000 (S Kirkby)
    (Rugby proposed a simple change to the dimensions of the double chimney that produced a 5% increase in steam rate. This was not implemented).

    A meaningful comparison can be made using the maximum steam rates for S Kirkby coal, sustained for one hour. These are: 39,000 lbs/hr for the MN and 30,000 lbs/hr for the Scot. In short, the MN has a maximum steam rate 30% greater than the Scot (40% if you consider the 20 minute figure).

    However, if we allow for the difference in grate area (by dividing the maximum steaming rate by the grate area) we find that the Scot outperforms the MN: Scot 30,000/31.25 = 960 and MN 39,000/48.5 = 804 (or 42,000/48.5 = 866).

    Size for size the Scot boiler is a better steamer than a MN but, of course the MN can reach outputs way beyond that of a Scot. So, a good “big un” will/should always beat a good “little un” but you may be surprised to find just how hard the “little un” can hit.

    As we don’t know exactly what the problem was we can’t say if the MN would have been more “resilient”. Now if it had been an adhesion issue . . . .
     
    peckett, Haighie, nige757 and 5 others like this.
  12. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,286
    Likes Received:
    6,437
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Tobacco manufacturing
    Location:
    Kendal
    No speed restrictions at KS at the moment that I know of and if the crew were having problems with steaming then I’d call that a struggle especially with the drain cock blowing like that .
     
  13. Waterbuck

    Waterbuck Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    769
    Likes Received:
    332
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Despite the rain we couldn't resist going to Hellifield to see Steam again and have a nice sandwich (mobile phone clip link attached)
     
    Victor, andalfi1, RalphW and 3 others like this.
  14. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    17,730
    Likes Received:
    16,753
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    As always, @Oswald T Wistle gives a considered, extended and welcome contribution. I went for brevity and was simply saying that when the going gets tough, coal and steamwise, and don’t tell me it doesn't sometimes happen with 10A coal, a MN is arguably a better loco to have. And to @RalphW don't try and tell me that steaming was fine in the later videos either. Did the train not stop? That's all.

    It really is amazing that we have two interesting runs on the S&C with two great locos close to each other and after too long a gap and we end up discussing the relative merits of two locos that are not really comparable rather than what coal can do on the S&C.
     
    MellishR likes this.
  15. andalfi1

    andalfi1 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    461
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Semi Retired.
    Location:
    Haworth
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Just to add, there were no apparent adhesion issues, so no issues there, one thing that was blatantly obvious was after a good southbound run to Appleby, steaming was a problem immediately from the off, I think coal was pulled forward during the water stop, this was the possible cause, the probability of exposing the 9 month (minimum) old, previous stock of coal and mixing it with what has already been acknowledged as good quality clean, low ash Russian Coal..
     
    Mick45305 and Oswald T Wistle like this.
  16. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,286
    Likes Received:
    6,437
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Tobacco manufacturing
    Location:
    Kendal
    Thanks for that hence the struggle with the crew battling gamely.
     
    andalfi1 likes this.
  17. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,068
    Likes Received:
    3,711
    The very black smoke on the departure from Hellifield, even after the water stop should have allowed some work on the fire, does tend to confirm that coal was the problem.
     
    dopeyt likes this.
  18. wcmlbls1846

    wcmlbls1846 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2009
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    422
    Galberta today, no diesel. AN
     
    Haighie, sunstream and black5 like this.
  19. Keith Sergeant

    Keith Sergeant Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2016
    Messages:
    85
    Likes Received:
    743
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bilsborrow
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    45699 Galatea posing as 45562 Alberta hauling 1Z52 The Pendle Dalesman south through Brock.

    _DSC5330.jpg
     
  20. JohnRobinson

    JohnRobinson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    836
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Location:
    Great Harwood, Lancs
    25/05/2021 - LMS Stanier Jubilee - running as 45562 "Alberta" on "The Dalesman" running from Lancaster to Carlisle via the S & C at Billington foot crossing



    DSC_10655.jpg
     

Share This Page