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CME - 2019

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by alastair, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. Linesider

    Linesider Member

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    Thanks very much all for your positive words, glad you enjoyed it so much. Great to see the sun shining on Lizzie again, even if it was raining at the same time (a surreal experience even by Shap standards!)
     
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  2. Jontie

    Jontie New Member

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    What a stunning video and what an effort you put into it. I'm privileged to have shared in it. Thank you very much indeed.
     
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  3. Julian Jones

    Julian Jones New Member

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    Can I add my comments in awe of the video? Forgive my curiosity but it’s so unusual I have a few questions...
    With regard to the southbound S and C section, was it all taken from the same vantage point? Where was it? I note the scenery “changes” as you move from one phase to another. Do you have a continuous version - so for example you can see the steam trail disappear into each of the tunnels and re-emerge?
    Thanks again for sharing.
     
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  4. Steamage

    Steamage Member

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    Just watched this in my lunch break. Brilliant. You've raised the bar again, David. This is just the sort of thing my Steam Age pals and I try to do but we've never got close to this. All I can say is that we're full of admiration.
     
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  5. Linesider

    Linesider Member

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    Thanks very much Jontie, Julian and Mark - greatly appreciated and you're most welcome, nice to share these things!

    No worries and yes it was all taken from the same location - up on Mallerstang Edge. I do have more footage but I couldn't see it entering Helm Tunnel, and in truth, my composition wasn't right initially for it re-emerging as I couldn't tell where the portal was until the steam re-appeared. With Birkett Tunnel, there is a tiny bit more of steam disappearing into the fell, then I set the camera to the southern portal to get it re-appearing. I did film it all the way up Mallerstang but the lack of much noise or sun meant I cut most of it after she turned the corner towards Angerholme. Think I shot around 20-25 minutes, with Smardale being the only area where she couldn't be seen for a few minutes.
     
  6. ragl

    ragl Member

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    Superb. Just. Superb........

    Cheerz,

    Alan
     
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  7. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    I posted most of this last Sunday in the RTC 2020 Thread and one of the Mods quickly shunted it off to Bullhead Memories. In retrospect I probably should have posted this part here.

    With not much to do and a lot of time to do it in I dug out the GPS file, picked out some relevant sectional times and calculated a couple of horsepower figures that were not included in my original report; these illustrate just what a top-notch performance it was.

    The Cumbrian Mountain Express 18 May 2019 – 45690 Leander hauling 10+POB (More info)

    It was an overcast day when we left Carnforth with 45690 at the head of 11 coaches with Mick Rawling driving and Chris Holmes firing. It was start as you mean to go on with a min of 30 on Yealand Bank and 34 at the summit. There followed a noisy acceleration up to 65 across Beela Viaduct and holding 50 as we roared through Oxenholme; speeds that would not disgrace a larger locomotive. We topped Grayrigg at 38. Had Leander done too much too soon? No, she was in fine fettle as she gathered pace through the Lune Gorge and we hit the foot of the Shap Trial Section (MP31½) at a shade over 70 and seven minutes and thirty-nine wonderfully noisy seconds later we passed MP37¼ at 28 and cleared the summit board at 32 (average edhp around 1275 – very good for a Jubilee).

    As we entered Carlisle 45231 was waiting in High Wapping sidings ready to take a Saphos train along the Cumbrian coast. Wetherspoons were open (those were the days, can anyone still remember what a pub was and how you had to squeeze past other customers?). I had Teryaki chicken and noodles (soon to disappear from the menu and much missed by Oswald).

    On the return leg Clive Gault took the shovel and Mick Rawling continued at the regulator. The excellent performance continued on the run to Appleby, the highlight for me being the sustained 60mph whilst climbing from Long Meg Viaduct up through Little Salkeld all the while accompanied by the spine-tingling Jubilee roar. Carlisle to Appleby in a creditable 41m 10s. Then for the only disappointment of the day; not much choice of ice creams and I had to settle for Thunder & Lightning. Mmm, ice cream – those were the days, and, as you ask, I am still abstaining from ice cream (West Brom Tom please don’t report me! Again!).

    A little light rain had been falling, could this hinder our charge towards Ormside? No, we touched 55mph in the dip and a smidge less at MP275 which is the start of the “Blue Riband” section (MP275 to MP259¾). Jubs don’t have a reputation as the best hill climbers; big wheels and perhaps a bit “under-boilered”. However, nobody had told Mick, Clive and Leander and she just kept going and going, roaring all the way. Surely she must run out of puff at some point, but no Mick judged it perfectly and the power stayed on all the way to the summit. We passed the summit board in 24m 02s from MP275 with 33mph at the top and an average edhp of around 1150.

    [As we made our way from Hellifield towards Clitheroe we passed through Chatburn and time to mention that “Whistles” came to the south side of the valley in 1961 when nearby Worsaw End Farm was the chosen location for the film Whistle Down The Wind starring Hayley Mills. On the north side of the valley there had been my sort of “Wistles” in and around Grindleton for over 600 years].

    One last challenge, Whalley to Wilpshire, a climb of 291ft in 4½miles was dismissed in 8 scintillating minutes and 7 stupendous seconds as Leander roared her way up the bank; the noisiest bit was saved until last.

    A memorable day out, and about as good as it gets with a Jubilee – or so we thought. . . .
     
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  8. 46203

    46203 Well-Known Member

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    _DSC0511-Edit.jpg

    Return leg on 18 May 2019 - Taken a while for this to wing itself here, did you submit your report by carrier pigeon by any chance?
     
  9. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    No usual method but it was typed by an infinite number of monkeys using an infinite number of keyboards and it took them a year to get it right. Talking of pigeons the bird in your pic looks a bit on the big side.
     
  10. 46203

    46203 Well-Known Member

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    Breed them big up here... Telephoto lens used, bird will have been nearer the camera than the 5X.
     
  11. Victor

    Victor Part of the furniture Friend

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    Yes Mr Whistle, it's been noted by a few members who, if I might say so, are not too happy with what seems to be a developing trend. First we had the excellent photographic contributions on The Jacobite thread, and now an attempt to stifle your excellent in depth reporting. Eventually members will get so brassed off they'll just stop posting.
    I don't know what goes on 'behind the scenes' on the forum but it would be interesting to know if decisions are democratic (all mods involved) or autocratic (one individual mod)
     
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  12. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    Thanks Victor for your encouraging words. With nothing currently going on just as some photographers who are posting "new" pics of previous trips I have been looking back at my records and posting "new" information or analysis (with a bit of the usual nonsense thrown in). I can't answer if the decisions, on what and what is not relevant, are democratic or unilateral - because I don't know. I do agree that if this continues members will become disheartened and stop posting, especially if the reason for a particular action was not fully explained (I am not saying that this was the case with my most recent post). An un-moderated forum would be a disaster and I would not like to have to perform the role of moderator but as the mods realise with the power comes responsibility - exercising one without the other would leave the forum a much poorer place. Oswald is resilient and will continue posting.
     
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  13. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    One day last week, I backed the DeLorean out of the garage, dusted off the flux capacitor and set the controls to 13072019, up to 88mph and here I am (or was?)

    The Cumbrian Mountain Express 13 July 2019 – 45690 Leander hauling 10+POB (Revisited)


    Many years ago, like many boys of my generation, when asked, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” I would answer, “An engine driver.” I have now accepted that this is not going to happen for two reasons; first, I am too old and second (as Mrs W tells me) I have never grown up. The next best thing is to ride on steam trains and, when the opportunity arises, talk to the footplate crew and the support staff.

    This brings me to Jubilees. Despite coaxing some wonderful performances from them, Gordon Hodgson was far from their greatest fan. He had a short description of them that I cannot recall exactly but the gist of which was, their cylinders are too big for their boiler and their wheels are too big. Another driver once told me that if you tried to work them too hard the fire could die. I suspected that if the driver demanded “too much” steam from the moderately sized boiler with a relatively small firebox too much coal or too little draught from the chimney would cause problems*. A couple of years ago yet another driver told me that they could be tricky but that he felt that they now “had their measure.” Recent years have seen more consistent performances, so what would this run produce?

    On the 28th May 2019 Leander put in a splendid performance with 11 coaches on the CME, this run was even better. Mick Rawling was the driver on both occasions and this time he was most ably assisted by Chris Holmes; whatever the loco Chris always seems to be able to make them steam. The weather was dry throughout. As the climbing was exceptional I thought that it was worthwhile to take another look at the performance on the major climbs.

    After quickly warming to the task we topped Yealand at 35.5 and set about gaining some speed for the climb to Grayrigg. We were up to 67.1 at MP13 (just before Beela Viaduct) and hammered through Oxenholme at a shade below 55. It’s a long climb to Grayrigg but Leander stuck at it and we reached the summit (MP26) at 41 giving an average speed for the climb of 53.1mph and an average edhp of 1410. Exceptional figures but would Leander be “winded” for the shorter, steeper, climb to Shap?

    There are 5½miles of favourable grades to gain some speed, fill the boiler and get the pressure “up to the mark”. We hit the start of the Shap Trial Section (MP31½) at 71.3 and blasted and roared up under the Greenholme Road (57), past Scout Green (45), over the road to the Shap Wells Hotel (33.6) to the end of the Trial Section (MP37¼) at 30.1. The average speed for the climb was 47.8mph and the edhp 1390.

    Leaving Carlisle we were booked to stop at Langwathby but this was rearranged and we ran through to Appleby (in the perfectly respectable time of 43m 29s). When leaving Appleby there are only 2¼ miles of favourable gradients in which to work up some speed before the long climb to Ais Gill. The climb begins at MP275 (just beyond the south end of Ormside Viaduct) and we were travelling at 56.1mph. 15¼ wonderfully noisy miles later we reached the summit (MP259¾) at 31.5; the climb was accomplished at an average speed of 40.6 mph and required an average edhp of 1220.

    I have found it is useful to examine the climb in 2 parts; MP275 to MP269 (southern portal of Crosby Garrett Tunnel) and from there to the summit. This can often indicate if a loco is struggling on the later part of the climb or has plenty left in reserve and is opened up.

    MP275 to MP269: av. speed 44.8mph, edhp 1330
    MP269 to MP259¾: av. speed 38.2, edhp 1160

    The last 2 miles of the 1/100r can be particularly arduous and saw the average speed fall,

    MP262 to MP260: av. speed 32.9, edhp 1030.

    The final climb was Wilpshire Bank, 4.5 miles between Whalley station and Ramsgreave and Wilpshire station with an increase in elevation of 290ft: av. speed 32.2mph, edhp 1270.

    A large wheeled loco might be expected to produce maximum edhp around 50 mph. Below that speed the edhp reduces as the loco slows (even though the tractive effort from the loco will rise). The performance fitted the expected pattern. On the climb to Ais Gill there is no indication that Leander was struggling but there appeared to have been nothing in hand that allowed her to be opened out near the summit.

    Edhp figures can be difficult to grasp, a little easier are the Equivalent Tractive Effort values; how hard the loco is pulling, at those (6) tiny contact points between driving wheels and rail, to drag itself and the coaches up the hill – “Grunt”. Average “grunt” figures for the climbs were, Grayrigg 4.5 Tons, Shap Trial 4.9 Tons, Ais Gill 5-5.25 Tons and Whalley 6.6 Tons.

    So how good are the figures? In October 1937 the LMS ran a series of runs with 5660 Rooke at the head of a test train including a dynamometer car, the gross weight of the train was 305 Tons. On a southbound run over the S&C a phenomenal time of 48m 36s for the 48.4 miles from Carlisle to Ais Gill was recorded. Northbound on the S&C, Settle Jn to Blea Moor (the Long Drag) was covered in 16m 20s, average speed 51.0mph and average edhp 1375. Rooke had a boiler with a 29.5 sq ft firebox but with a 24 element superheater; Leander has a similar superheater but the larger 31 sq ft firebox. Some opinions suggest more “records” were set by locos equipped with the smaller firebox. It is widely acknowledged that Rooke was driven as near to flat out as makes no difference. The benchmark has been set.

    The climb of Grayrigg, similar length to the Long Drag and completed at a comparable average speed, required a (calculated) edhp of 1410; on the S&C Rooke averaged 1375 edhp (measured). So our run was up there with the very best by a Jubilee and with a tumultuous soundtrack throughout resulting in a thoroughly memorable day out.

    Tina Turner was already belting out “Simply the best, better than all the rest” (if not better than all the rest certainly as good as) when I chanced on the following and I leave the final word to another Oswald (O.S.Nock),

    An outstanding experience of my own was on the footplate of engine No. 5565 Victoria, working the up “Thames-Clyde Express”, when the cut-off was maintained at 42 to 47 per cent. with full regulator on the ascent from Carlisle almost to Armathwaite at speeds well over 40 m.p.h. and sustaining a drawbar horsepower (corrected for gradient) of 1,400 to 1,500.

    *When introduced Jubilees were poor steamers, several modifications were made; the numbers of tubes and superheater flues were changed, the blastpipe and chimney size varied and the firebox size increased (necessitating a shortening of the boiler barrel). Finally after much trial and error a satisfactory arrangement was reached.

    In terms of cylinder volume a Jubilee sits a little over halfway between a Black 5 and a Royal Scot. Tests at Rugby in the 1950s showed that the maximum sustained steaming rate of a Jubilee was lower than that of a Black 5 and way below that of a converted Scot. (The Scot boiler has a similar sized firebox, is almost identical in length, is a little “chubbier” but has better internal layout and a double chimney).

    The main factor affecting steam production was found to be insufficient smokebox vacuum at high outputs (“draw on the fire”). This could be much improved by changes to the design of the blastpipe and chimney; 9 locos were modified. A similar improvement could also be achieved by the fitting of a double chimney. Either of the modifications produced an increase in maximum steam output of almost 20%. The Jubilees could also be fitted with the excellent 2A boiler (later used for the Royal Scot conversions and fitted to Jubilees Comet and Phoenix) this overcame all the steaming problems and upped performance levels significantly. However, steam was coming to an end and the capital expenditure could not be justified. Even without the modifications a single chimney Jubilee could, with expert handling, produce high outputs as demonstrated by Rooke.


    In preservation, Bahamas survives with a double chimney (previously carried by Connaught). I don’t know if Leander or Galatea were restored (from scrapyard condition) with the earlier blastpipe/chimney arrangement or have the modified (1950s) version. What I do know is that, with good coal and skilled handling, they are capable of some wonderful performances and make a glorious noise whilst doing so.

    Whilst the DeLorean was out I re-set the controls and travelled to the near future (don’t know why I hadn’t thought of this before) and arranged my Coronavirus injection. Now I’ve had injections in many different places, but never one there, in the back passage . . . . the one behind the hospital. Whilst I was waiting (in the socially distanced queue) I read the day’s newspaper. Remember old Boris, seems like he was our last ever Prime Minister; “Good King Charlie” had him locked up in the Tower. Boris took to comfort eating, up to 28 stones apparently, before finally eating his cellmate, Dominic Cummings and dying a couple of days later from food poisoning. I do so like a happy ending.
     
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  14. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

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    The Cumbrian Mountain Express 13 July 2019 – 45690 Leander hauling 10+POB (Extra Time)

    In my previous post I admitted that I didn’t know if Leander or Galatea had been fitted with the later blastpipe and chimney – I was contacted by an NP member who was able to confirm that Leander was modified some 3 or 4 years ago and that the effects on steaming were spectacular. Within the last year, whilst chatting on a station platform, someone asked one of the WCRC drivers which was the most powerful of the 3 Jubilees. After much thought he said that they were all about the same. After a patchy return to the mainline Galatea now consistently produces the same high level of performance as Leander; it is reasonable to conclude that Galatea has also been modified.

    When travelling behind a Jubilee my favourite stretch for listening to the “Full Jubilee Roar” is the southbound climb from Long Meg up through Little Salkeld to Langwathby. The speed through Little Salkeld will typically be in the high 50s and the sound of the exhaust makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. On the test run in 1937, when Rooke (albeit with a much lighter load) charged towards Ais Gill, she flew through Little Salkeld at 75mph – now that wouldn’t have made the hairs just stand up it would have ripped them clean out.
     
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  15. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    In days of yore when we were returning from Scotland over the S&C with Bittern, we were up to 80 just before Little Salkeld to the extent that the p.way bit back and forced us to stop at Culgaith for a quick loco inspection. We then took off again with 66 at Ormside and a feisty onward climb prior to drifting over the top in the mid forties. Only an hour and a half to Hellifield including the nigh on 5 minutes at Culgaith. You do tend to forget how much the overall 60 limit restricts decent running on the S&C much as the singling of the line west of Salisbury reduces running to a shadow of what the switchback route was designed for.
     
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  16. 30567

    30567 Well-Known Member Friend

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    But for sheer speed, did Bittern beat 35012 and Mr Hooker, admittedly with just 9 coaches?

    19 miles from Petteril Bridge to Langwathby in 21' 24''. Then sigs at Culgaith for someone to take a photo, then a pws.

    MP275 to Ais Gill SB in 15' 37''.

    Carlisle to Settle Jct (signal stop) in 83' 10'' of which 14 mins was spent on the 8 miles from Langwathby to Long Marton, so net time maybe 77 mins.

    Given the line restriction, the restrictions at Dent and Ribblehead and the slow approach to Hellifield GL, the recent times of 94 mins look very good.
     
  17. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Petteril Bridge to Langwathby in 18 min 43 sec with 10 coaches. Rather swift.
    MP 275 to Ais Gill in 18 min. Eased off a lot near the summit.
    Carlisle to Settle Junction in 89 min 15 sec as we drifted down the other side in not much more than today's 60 limit.
    Still pretty good though.
     

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