Cape gauge in the UK?

I didn't know whether this would be most appropriate in the Heritage Railways and Centres in the UK, Steam Traction, Narrow Gauge or International forums. Anyway, here it is and I trust it isn't out of place.

Some are probably aware of the situation regarding railway / locomotive preservation in South Africa. A combination of factors led to a large a number of often very vintage locomotives, mostly of British origin being used in railway service until the 1990s, and in industrial use even later. In fact, the use of steam locomotives in industry will only conclude in June with the replacement of the two former SAR 19Ds at the Sappi Saiccor paper mill near Durban with diesels. A similar turn of events is expected to transpire at a Botswanan colliery (the name of which escapes me) in October (again, the locos are 19Ds).

There are a number of groups in South Africa dedicated to preserving steam locomotives in operation, but my perception is that officialdom is at best not supportive. Not good when many of the 'preserved' locomotives parked at various sites around the country are still owned by the national railway who seem to be keen to divest themselves of them. Over the last ten years or so a few locomotives have been exported to Australia and New Zealand, and of course everybody knows about the 2 foot gauge Garratts for the Welsh Highland. The North British Locomotive Group have repatriated a few locomotives, and there is the Class 7 at NRM Shildon and the 15F at Riverside Museum in Glasgow (and the GMAM Garratt at Summerlee now I think about it). All of these locomotives are on static display, which is great, as some British industrial history is preserved. But has no-one ever seriously considered a British cape gauge railway, for the operation of British-built locomotives?

There are clearly some considerable problems with such an idea. The transport of these locomotives and other rolling stock for thousands of miles is one, but perhaps more important would be the appearance of yet another steam railway scheme in a fairly saturated UK preservation scene. (There are threads elsewhere in the forums talking about re-opening old railway lines when there are other railways, often quite large ones a short distance away.) Where do the volunteers come from? Where do the passengers come from for that matter? We are talking about large locomotives here too, even the "branch line" 19D is 130-odd tonnes in working order. There are no doubt other major issues that others will point out.

On the flip side, the UK preservation scene isn't saturated nationwide, with concentrations of lines in the south of England, the Midlands and Yorkshire. There are relatively few railways in Scotland (although I understand the SRPS are facing something of a volunteer shortage, so there may be good reasons for that), the North East of England and South Wales for example. Currently vast sums of money are being expended recreating locomotives which failed to survive the 1960s--by way of comparison at the occasional Transnet auctions the locomotives fetch scrap prices. For the many railways 'further down the food chain' as it were, the options are either industrial locomotives, or restoring the occasional Barry wreck that becomes available with a large price tag. What I am trying to get at is that the cost of repatriating a cheap, possibly working locomotive is not necessarily any greater, and possibly considerably less than many existing restoration projects. The African locomotives were built for use on lightly laid track (branch lines 60lb rail and main lines 80lb rail) and even a main line 15F is designed for curves of 100m radius. Further, if a cape gauge scheme was done well and in the right place I think people would travel to see it--of course whether they would travel in great enough numbers is open to conjecture.

Please forgive the slightly random collection of thoughts above. My question is simply this--is there any such scheme proposed (seriously, by people who would have a chance of making it succeed)? My guess is not or I would have heard of it, but I live in hope! Secondly does the idea have any legs at all, or is even the thought of it as mad as a proverbial box of frogs?

 

There was at one time talk of re-opening the Princetown branch to the 3'6" gauge and one of the preserved 3'6" gauge engines 4112 Springbok BP 7827/NB 27770 1957 was donated to the Plym Valley Railway railway but nothing happened after that.

 

Waits for PH to offer his opinion
will not be holding my breath waiting for a positive outcome
Cheers
Colin

 

I think we'll be ok just as long as we dont say the magic words...

 

Having lived and worked in South Africa for a while and seen these beasts in their home setting I would love to see something constructive to happen in the UK with the locos already imported.. However I will not be holding my breath. As you say these are massive machines and the costs are significant, there are more effective ways of steam hauling three coaches on a half a mile of track. To most UK people they are 'foreign' so do not count as they did not run in BR livery. Think of all of the other 'foreign' locos here and not many are welcomed with open arms. A shame but true, so unless we have a tame millionaire with a burning desire to see these beasts over here I doubt much will happen.

 

what would kill this idea would be rolling stock provision. Importing a coach would cost much the same as a loco.

Better perhaps to hold good locos in reserve in the hope that one day a suitable demonstration line could be laid somewhere like Quainton Road.

 

The ideal setting would be the West Midlands Safari Park Branch with dual gauge running in to Kidderminster (Yes I know about the loading gauge). All pie in the sky stuff.

 

Thanks for the responses. The Plym Valley GMAM is now at Summerlee in Coatbridge (as an aside I guess the dual builder's numbers means that it was a BP order subcontracted to NBL?). The Princetown branch could have been good, but there are something like 3 or 4 other railways within 20 miles of it--this is the saturated market (in some parts of the country) which I was referring to.

@ilvaporista , you are so right about the 'foreign' thing with British enthusiasts. There are much better locomotives for hauling 3 coaches up half a mile of track, but I think for anything like this to work it would need to be a decent run somewhere with plenty of tourists, not too far from a centre of population and with few competing steam railways nearby. By the way I take it that you aren't a tame millionaire!

@Reading General, I can't actually believe you're a railway enthusiast, thinking about coaches. Surely everyone knows that railway preservation is all about the locomotives, to the detriment of everything else! But you are absolutely right about the costs associated with importing other rolling stock (and you would need other more humdrum stock for track laying, civil engineering etc.). It's very dependent upon what the shipping arrangements are, but the reduced weight of a coach compared with a locomotive would mean much reduced craneage costs (not many ports have 100t cranes) or obviate the need to transport on a heavy lift vessel.

 

I think it's a non-starter in this country. To all intents and purposes, the costs and complexities of building a 3'6" gauge line would be the same as building standard gauge one, but without the "home front nostalgia" appeal to the public. How would you market the line? What style of building would you put up? And how would you start: everything would have to be done from scratch, so it's a massive investment without any ability to really test the water. (For example, you can't import a loco and run it on an existing line to see if it is popular).

That said: if South Africa aren't interested in preserving their own heritage, why not try importing a loco into New Zealand? The shipping costs wouldn't be significantly different to importing to Britain; there is a well developed preservation scheme; and the existing infrastructure is the right gauge, so you can start in a more low-key way - plus there is a bit of a South African diaspora in NZ, particularly around Auckland.

Tom

 

Uh, Princetown...the dream. A railway of any gauge on Dartmoor would be stunning!

 

So what about the WHR for starters with their engines which never worked over here in their pre preservation days, and all the other narrow gauge railways which are depended on imported engines as well.

 

The title of the thread is Cape Gauge, which is the 3' 6". Correct me if I am wrong but I can not remember any of these locos being steamed in the UK. If you put a Duchess next to a 25NC you will find that the Duchess is 10 feet shorter, these really are big pieces of kit. On the narrow gauge there are plenty of locos that worked overseas and are now resident here and I am glad do see a more enlightened view with regards to standard gauge with the TKh tanks and the S160's.

 

New Zealand loading gauge is very restricted (unless a great deal of work has been done in recent years). It is a bit like trying to run U.S. machinery in the U.K. unless it has been specifically designed for British dimensions.

Paul H

 

If the line across Rannoch Moor had been closed that would have been a good place for them. Other wise it will have to be on the fens area where there is a lack of overhead bridges.

 

Quite a lot of regauging has gone on recently - tunnel floors dropped, twisty lines straightened etc. I think that is primarily so that KiwiRail can use off -the-shelf American motive power (regauged, but otherwise box standard) rather than have to design afresh. The global standardisation of shipping container sizes also forces the hand towards regauging in places.

Tom

 

Using Google sat that line is nearly over bridge free, and these are only in minor roads. So if somebody wanted to build a Cape Gauge line over here it would be a good track bed to do it on, and show the engines off to their best in the rugged country side.

 

It's the difference between 'problems looking for a solution' and 'solutions looking for a problem'. I can't imagine that, in light of the history of the WHR, they ever considered a different gauge for it. But selecting motive power to run services of X coaches up Y gradient required brute force unavailable in the existing UK narrow gauge loco stock. That was their problem, and the Garratts were their solution to it.

Defining a solution, 'cape gauge', and then looking for a problem for it to solve feels orders of magnitude more complicated, both in terms of suitable locations, suitable stock, and sufficient interested people wanting to bankroll it. Even having a fleet of locos and rolling stock available over here would be a trivial exercise in comparison to finding a suitable location for them to run, the infrastructure to enable them to run, and a sufficient target market to make running worthwhile.

Simon